Council Tax Referendum

Westdene Seagull said:

In my experience this statement is complete rubbish.

Over the last few years I've had reason to contact a number of councillors across the political spectrum to deal with concerns I held personally and to assist in dealing with neighbourhood issues. Without fail, every time I have contacted both Labour and Conservative councillors they have responded quickly, politely and constructively. This can not be said of the Green councillors I have contacted.

One very good example was the attempt to increase rents for allotments. Labour and Conservative members responded immediately to my concerns and I got emails and phone updates from them. The Green councillors ? Not a word, not even an acknowledgement that I had contacted them ....... UNTIL ..... after the budget was rejected and allotment rents weren't increased. What I got then was a diatribe of emails from a number of the Green councillors accusing the Labour and Conservative councillors of ganging up against the Greens, lying and not understanding what they were trying to do. No addressing of my concerns at all. They did decided, for some bizarre reason, to copy in a number of Labour and Conservative councillors.

So in my experience the Greens only want to know your opinion if it supports their policies and plans. If these policies and plans are defeated then they turn into child like creatures throwing around accusations of being bullied etc.

EDIT - and you only needed to watch the ridiculous speech that Jason Kitcat gave at the first Green budget council meeting to realise he's a rude and arrogant prat who seems to think sixth form common room politics works in the big wide world.

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Machiavelli said:

Oh dear. What's motivating your question is what's more important, or what should we value more, money or democracy. The answer to this question is somewhere between £100K and £230K. The Argus decides to only inform its readers of the latter figure, which seems to support The Large One's claim that it is anti-Green, not to mention anti-democratic and small-minded. I would imagine that the former figure is more likely, if the referendum is combined with the EU elections.
Democracy hasn't been doing too well over the last three or four decades in developed western countries, and referenda are only a small way in which to tackle this developing democratic deficit. This referendum is a good move for the following reasons:
-- as The Large One and DavidinSouthampton have pointed out, Pickles has continued to hollow out local government, a process started by Thatcher. This referendum is the first challenge to Pickles' agenda.
-- when the Coalition drew up their cuts, they sought to offload a substantial chunk of the responsibility of these cuts on to local councils. This is what they gleefully called 'devolving the axe', which is a particularly cowardly act by this bunch of bullies that form our national government.
-- the recent history of local council elections in B&HA has been very tight, a kind of three-way battle between the Tories, Labour and the Greens. This has seen either coalitions, ad-hoc groupings, and minority councils. All of this makes getting policies through difficult. Being a minority council, the Greens cannot claim that they have sufficient support -- either on the council, or among the citizens who elect -- for either keeping in line with Pickles' agenda of cutting council budgets, or of raising council tax so that vital services can be provided. As a consequence, turning to the electorate to make this decision, particularly if it can be done more cheaply by combining it with another (ie EU) election, seems the best policy.
-- when we elect councillors and/or the parties they represent, they provide a programme or manifesto of policies that they want to implement. Inevitably, citizens will disagree with some of these, and agree with others. So, on certain issues, especially when situations become precarious (I'm referring to council budgets here) it seems reasonable that they should turn to the electorate for their verdict. This burden falls on the Greens even more because one of their long-standing policies has been to seek to involve, and respond to, the electorate more than the other parties.

I know that this position will generate a response. I will only respond to something that's dealing with one of the specific points raised, or the general point I began with, which is money or democracy.

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The Large One said:

Interesting rant, but short on substance and value. That rant is all about 'me, me, me', and not about the city as a whole.

The Greens do like to engage on just about every issue - almost to a fault, much to the mirth of Labour and the Tories, who believe that the decision was taken at the ballot box. Now that's arrogant.

As stated earlier, you are falling into the well-laid trap of making this a Green against Others campaign, which has little value.

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Southover Street Seagull said:

Jason Kitkat said on the BBC Daily Politics Show this week that the referendum will cost £230,000.
I didn't know that. My figures came from various reports that I've glanced at.
There is an argument that this referendum is playing into the hands of Pickles. If the referendum takes places and the result is a 'No' then Pickles would probably argue that a low council tax/council tax freeze and cuts are what the public want. A lot of the public probably do not want cuts to vital services but will look at their own personal finances first, but like any politician Pickles will spin it his own way.
You might be right on this front. Only time will tell. Politics is about acting within a contingent situation.
If the referendum is indeed £230,000 as Jason Kitkat quoted, did go ahead and was successful in the Greens favour, how much would the cost of the referendum reduce the monies raised by the increase voted for in the referendum?I'm no expert on local council finance, and am willing to admit as much.

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Southover Street Seagull said:

Jason Kitkat said on the BBC Daily Politics Show this week that the referendum will cost £230,000.

There is an argument that this referendum is playing into the hands of Pickles. If the referendum takes places and the result is a 'No' then Pickles would probably argue that a low council tax/council tax freeze and cuts are what the public want. A lot of the public probably do not want cuts to vital services but will look at their own personal finances first, but like any politician Pickles will spin it his own way.

If the referendum is indeed £230,000 as Jason Kitkat quoted, did go ahead and was successful in the Greens favour, how much would the cost of the referendum reduce the monies raised by the increase voted for in the referendum?

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Waino696969 said:

I was just interested that's all. If you think that's important then carry on.

Would you like to know what I'm having for lunch too?

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The Large One said:

The figure has since been revised down, as they wish to tie it in with the Euro elections, which would apparently save costs.

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Westdene Seagull said:

In my experience this statement is complete rubbish.

Over the last few years I've had reason to contact a number of councillors across the political spectrum to deal with concerns I held personally and to assist in dealing with neighbourhood issues. Without fail, every time I have contacted both Labour and Conservative councillors they have responded quickly, politely and constructively. This can not be said of the Green councillors I have contacted.

One very good example was the attempt to increase rents for allotments. Labour and Conservative members responded immediately to my concerns and I got emails and phone updates from them. The Green councillors ? Not a word, not even an acknowledgement that I had contacted them ....... UNTIL ..... after the budget was rejected and allotment rents weren't increased. What I got then was a diatribe of emails from a number of the Green councillors accusing the Labour and Conservative councillors of ganging up against the Greens, lying and not understanding what they were trying to do. No addressing of my concerns at all. They did decided, for some bizarre reason, to copy in a number of Labour and Conservative councillors.

So in my experience the Greens only want to know your opinion if it supports their policies and plans. If these policies and plans are defeated then they turn into child like creatures throwing around accusations of being bullied etc.

EDIT - and you only needed to watch the ridiculous speech that Jason Kitcat gave at the first Green budget council meeting to realise he's a rude and arrogant prat who seems to think sixth form common room politics works in the big wide world.

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Machiavelli said:

You seem to be taking my post, or perhaps especially the first two words, personally. Your question, while fine, was one that many on here and elsewhere would pose. I was merely attempting to point this out, and trying to respond to the thread more generally.
And what's for lunch?

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Stoo82 said:

Has there ever been a poll which suggests people are in favour of a tax rise?

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Medwayseagull said:

Milton Keynes a few years ago held a successful referendum on raising Council tax.

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Machiavelli said:

Well, my experience of contacting councillors is somewhat different to yours. You seem to think that your contact with councillors is either on a par with, or more important than, a referendum. Why is this?

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Westdene Seagull said:

Where have I suggested that ? What I was pointing out was that your statement about the Greens wanting to converse with the wider electorate more than other parties is, in my experience, wrong. Labour and Conservative councillors have been far more responsive and listened to concerns my neighbourhood have than any Green councillor has.

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wellquickwoody said:

Mister KitKat (won't use that phrase again to precede his name) has not only cited adult social care as a justification for the proposed tax rise, but has also said the money is needed for donations to charitable causes.

Err? Excuse me! I choose where my charity goes, not someone who probably has entirely different social issues on their conscience than me, and who also holds political views which I probably could not be more at odds with.

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Stoo82 said:

I would be very interested to see the turnout.

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Captain Sensible said:

Adult social care? I struggle towards the end of each month, I can't afford to be squeezed anymore. Especially by something like this. The council gets enough money from me IMO and there's no way I'm voting to give those fools any extra.

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Westdene Seagull said:

Where have I suggested that ? What I was pointing out was that your statement about the Greens wanting to converse with the wider electorate more than other parties is, in my experience, wrong. Labour and Conservative councillors have been far more responsive and listened to concerns my neighbourhood have than any Green councillor has.

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