The EU- the definitive NSC referendum

Twinkle Toes · Jan 8, 2014

Goldstone Rapper said:
Me!

Would you like some pierogi?

Oooooh, yes please! This could turn into a hearty feast of European delicacies this evening. Wunderbar!

ps Anybody have a nice cold bottle of premium Czech Beer to spare please? These nibbles are giving me a right thirst. :drool:

Southern Toon · Jan 8, 2014

Herr Tubthumper said:
Can a mod delete this please. We do not need a 3rd EU thread in as many days.

Herman has spoken, end of debate. Bit like the European union - Do as i say.

Cheshire Cat · Jan 8, 2014

Southern Toon said:
Herman has spoken, end of debate. Bit like the European union - Do as i say.

Not at all. That was ages ago and we are now sitting round the fire debating the various models of European development, with a selection of delectable European dainties - the baklava is a bit sweet to go with the Calvados.

BN9 BHA · Jan 8, 2014

Twinkle Toes said:
BTW, anybody fancy a Pringle?

I love a golfing jumper, popular with the 80s casuals, what size have you got?

drew · Jan 8, 2014

Have I arrived too late to annoy Mr Rivet. Nevermind, her goes.

The Rivet said:
I believe in this country as a separate entity to Europe. I believe in self determination. I believe in the right to vote for who governs me. And I agree with this post.

Fine words but they mean jack shit in the modern world of the global village with a global market and global companies.

The Rivet said:
but not voting for the person that will TELL you what you can do? Seriously, don't you see that? If you don't you are sleep walking to dictatorship!

I didn't vote for Cameron and Osbourne but they seem to be telling me what to do!

The Rivet said:
and history may mean you have no vote.

Which history would that be then! Can't recall previous situations where countries have willingly combined together deprive their countrymen of the vote!

drew · Jan 8, 2014

By the way, sour cream and chive for me.

Goldstone Rapper · Jan 8, 2014

bn9 bha said:
I love a golfing jumper, popular with the 80s casuals, what size have you got?

As long as no-one brings Derek Pringle to the debate, it's OK.

BadFish · Jan 8, 2014

The Rivet said:
YOU are, have you had election material from the rep of Poland, Italy, Spain. Have you voted for the ruling elite as yet? Jeez utter tripe

Surely only the people of Witney got to vote for David Cameron and by extension they are the only ones who get election material from David Cameron. Not really sure I see the difference. You still get to vote for the UK voices in the European Parliament just like you get to vote for your local voice at Westminster. What goes on in both those places is really out of your hand until your next opportunity to vote.

Of course you don't get to vote on the representatives for Poland Spain or Italy, that is absurd. However you do get to vote for your representatives.

Westdene Seagull · Jan 9, 2014

The Rivet said:
but not voting for the person that will TELL you what you can do? Seriously, don't you see that? If you don't you are sleep walking to dictatorship!

Personally I think we'd be better off out of the EU - and have been slammed for that view many a time on here but PLEASE, dump the ridiculous rhetoric and implied insults. It does the anti-EU argument no favours and supports the often used argument that those of us against the EU are somewhat simple ( and probably racist ). Try and debate the issue in a mature way instead.

cunning fergus · Jan 9, 2014

BadFish said:
Surely only the people of Witney got to vote for David Cameron and by extension they are the only ones who get election material from David Cameron. Not really sure I see the difference. You still get to vote for the UK voices in the European Parliament just like you get to vote for your local voice at Westminster. What goes on in both those places is really out of your hand until your next opportunity to vote.

Of course you don't get to vote on the representatives for Poland Spain or Italy, that is absurd. However you do get to vote for your representatives.

You don't see the difference because you don't want to, the EU Parliament has a different role to that of the UK Parliament. The EU Commission set the laws in the EU, and can do so without the need to get ratification from the EU Parliament or the member states own Parliament. That is not the position in the UK, so comparisons are absurd.

http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/basicfacts/index_en.htm

The Commissioners are typically other politicians appointed by the other politicians from the Member States, hence the UK has contributed Mandelson, Kinnock and currently the Foreign Minister Dame Ashton to the Commission..............yet the British electorate have no say.

The EU Commission is essentially the Government and it's effectively run as a Politburo.

cunning fergus · Jan 9, 2014

drew said:
Have I arrived too late to annoy Mr Rivet. Nevermind, her goes.

Fine words but they mean jack shit in the modern world of the global village with a global market and global companies.

I didn't vote for Cameron and Osbourne but they seem to be telling me what to do!

Which history would that be then! Can't recall previous situations where countries have willingly combined together deprive their countrymen of the vote!

Cameron and Osbourne are telling you what to do because they secured the right to form a coalition Govt because they secured more seats than any other party in the last GE. They can legitimately therefore create UK laws.

The UK (and you) are also told what to do by a legislative (the EU Commission) headed by Manuel Barrosso..........when did we have a an opportunity to vote for him?

Albion_Dave · Jan 9, 2014

Another IN vote here.

El Presidente · Jan 9, 2014

cunning fergus said:
Cameron and Osbourne are telling you what to do because they secured the right to form a coalition Govt because they secured more seats than any other party in the last GE. They can legitimately therefore create UK laws.

The UK (and you) are also told what to do by a legislative (the EU Commission) headed by Manuel Barrosso..........when did we have a an opportunity to vote for him?

The EU Commission has the power to initiate legislation, but laws have to be ratified by the European Parliament, which is an elected body.

Gwylan · Jan 9, 2014

The Rivet said:
[/B]
I disagree. I hate to think that we may be stifled through big corporations and minimal vision from governments but I think our young are very open minded, entrepreneurial and up for future visions.

You're completely wrong on this: there have been several surveys to suggest that the young are more pro-European than the elderly. The latest one, in December, was from ICM and had 18-24 year-olds in favour of the UK being in the EU by an 8% majority, while the over-65s were against by a 25% majority.

beorhthelm · Jan 9, 2014

El Presidente said:
The EU Commission has the power to initiate legislation, but laws have to be ratified by the European Parliament, which is an elected body.

but the Parliment can only do what it is told, it cannot initiate legislation. it cannot hold the commission to account. it is impotent, a fig leaf of democracy.

what many also overlook is that the very nature or politics and legal systems are different between european countries and the UK. many laws and regulations that might seem ok on the surface are alien to the UK system.

Tricky Dicky · Jan 9, 2014

In, but not with the EU as it stands, it needs changes.

daveinprague · Jan 9, 2014

In - The sooner people understand that the world has changed, the better.

cunning fergus · Jan 9, 2014

El Presidente said:
The EU Commission has the power to initiate legislation, but laws have to be ratified by the European Parliament, which is an elected body.

The Commission has executive power.

Directives have to be passed by the Parliament and implemented by members states.

Regulations do not............these do not have to be passed by the EU Parliament, and are not passed by the member states, the laws go straight to statute.

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/introduction/what_regulation_en.htm

El Presidente · Jan 9, 2014

cunning fergus said:
The Commission has executive power.

Directives have to be passed by the Parliament and implemented by members states.

Regulations do not............these do not have to be passed by the EU Parliament, and are not passed by the member states, the laws go straight to statute.

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/introduction/what_regulation_en.htm

Yup, thanks for that!

Hastings gull · Jan 9, 2014

warsaw said:
Fed up with claim and counter claim on endless EU and immigration threads. So lets sort this out once and for all NOW . IN or OUT? No fence

Yes, I know you don't want people to sit on the fence, but yes or no is really too simplistic. If you ask people whether they would like to be members of the EU just involving easier trade and travel, as it used to be, then you would get a very different answer, I am sure, compared to if you asked voters to endorse full membership involving doing what all sorts of European quangos want us to do, irrespective of our own parliament.

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