Was the war justified ?

Gritt23 · Jul 8, 2003

Gareth Glover said:
I am a believer in " you reap what you sow " and the backlash from the USA after 11/9/01 was inevitable and Hussain and his support of terrorism was going to have his backside whipped. The people celebrating in the streets in the middle east was always going to have a payback.

Unfortunately the "reap what you sow" bit is exactly why the attrocities just continue to go on and on. Do you not believe that US (and maybe UK) will indeed "reap what they sow" in that we will feel the brunt of a revenge attack for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq??

Surely, by storming in showing our macho military strength we have just inflicted the sort of death and destruction to innocent people that leads to another generation of Osama's growing up.

If I was a little Iraqi boy, seeing my whole family die in the destruction that was the "War on Iraq" I think I would grow up with a strong hatred of them, and love to gain my revenge one day.

Someone needs to be big enough to rise above the "right, I'll get you for that" playground mentality, and Bush and Blair were not man enough to do it. Instead they made the same mistake that has been made for generations.

That's just my opinion of course, and I expect some of you to be as strongly opposed to my words as I am in favour of them.

Rivalder · Jul 8, 2003

Is this the closest poll we have had

Gritt23 · Jul 8, 2003

WiltsRoyal said:
Evidence, please!!!

I don't recall this ever being a war on terror. The "sex-ing" up was not done by our military intelligence, I can assure you. Evidence to justify the invasion is well known unto the Intelligence, but sadly isn't disseminated among the UK public. The only things the public get to be able to make their own opinion is the news, which is why many feel as you do. The blame isn't those you blame, it is the media and the government in its choice of information dissemination.

And what is

...he did a pretty f***ing good job of doing that for the last 30 years! We knew he wouldn't kill them all when we got close, hence we went in! We wouldn't do it otherwise!!

Sorry mate, the evidence needs to be provided by the government for why we went in, not by anyone else to show we shouldn't

"War on Terror" is indeed how this all started, and was then dropped when it didn't get public backing.

Of course the public aren't entitled to all the evidence but the UN are, and they didn't see a justification, AND more importantly I expect what evidence is presented to us to be the truth, and it just wasn't !

As for the last bit, you know exactly what i mean. The stories being bandied about were that he would release all his chemical weapons on his people as soon as we invaded, and that just proved to be another groundless claim to make him sound even worse than he was. Something I don't think we needed to do, as there can be no real debate that he was an evil fella.

Wilts · Jul 8, 2003

Who are "innocent people"?

Are they the same ones that have been killed in terrorist incidents worldwide?

Are they the same ones that couldn't speak out against Saddam?

Are they the same ones that now lie in mass graves?

Are they the same ones that get killed on Britain's roads due to careless driving?

Are they the same ones that get killed on Britain's roads through no fault of their own, or even the driver!??!

Shit happens! And you have to take a global view. Would you prefer

(a) 40,000,000 people in a country (and potentially more considering Saddam's threat to neighbours such as Kuwait in the past) to suffer for possibly the rest of their lives

(b) For around 20,000 of them to die, and then the other 39,980,000 of them to have a chance to live in peace.

I know its a tough call, what with morals of "no-one deserves to die", but its purely down to chance and fate whether a single person dies or not. And its hardly much more out-of-the-ordinary having people die in such circumstances in Iraq than in many other "non-natural" deaths.

Uncle Spielberg · Jul 8, 2003

Being a harsh realist, Gritts post sums up the problem with Humanity. It cannot get on with each other, never has , never will. Most of it is down to religion. We do not understand each others cultures and beliefs, but I would prefer to tie my colours to the mast of the USA who allow free speech and enterprise who embrace a whole cross section of religions, colours, races etc. So if its come down to a debate about countries give me the USA any day over the middle east thank you very much.

Wilts · Jul 8, 2003

Gritt23 said:
As for the last bit, you know exactly what i mean. The stories being bandied about were that he would release all his chemical weapons ....

But the "stories" are all part of this "sexing up" you mention, which is purely a media fabrication in order to create "news" that just plainly isn't. The defence and (to a lesser extent) government know exactly what to do in each potential political scenario, and although Mr Blair does not get my trust as a Prime Minister, I believe (opinion) that he is indeed Mr Bush's poodle, and we are run by the US government. But our defence remains entirely a UK issue.

The "War on Terror" woke up the US, who have never really encountered the same problem that we've had with terrorism (IRA), Spain (ETA) etc, who notably are supporting us in Iraq now! The problem is the short-sightedness of the British public who link the two issues together due to the fact that an "evil dictator" is being removed.

Gritt23 · Jul 8, 2003

WiltsRoyal said:
The problem is the short-sightedness of the British public who link the two issues together due to the fact that an "evil dictator" is being removed.

We aint gonna agree on this, and I won't drag this on for much longer as I've made my point, but I refute the suggestion that I'm being short-sighted. Quite the opposite, I think our actions will lead to revenge attacks in the long-term

Wilts · Jul 8, 2003

Gritt23 said:
We aint gonna agree on this, and I won't drag this on for much longer as I've made my point, but I refute the suggestion that I'm being short-sighted. Quite the opposite, I think our actions will lead to revenge attacks in the long-term

Yeah, sorry about that. Wasn't intended to be a personal attack, fella. More of an attack on whoever believes what the read and see in the media... which is unfortunately near enough everyone as people without insight into military operations don't really know what is going on... and I can't say I know that much despite what I hear from my Dad and his Army colleagues.

I agree we probably won't agree (opinions an' all that), but your last bit probably explains exactly why we won't, and its an issue for much debate.

If an Iraqi kid grows up remembering that his parents were killed, then he might take revenge. But if he finds out (from his elders - who are more appreciative) that the coalition forces "saved" the country, then he might celebrate his parents' lives rather than the opposite.

Still, good to have an informed debate with someone in the know :wave:

Hamilton · Jul 8, 2003

The only justification for the war was that Saddam was an evil dictator.

Every other argument does not stand up - WMD, threat to British security, links with Al Queda - none of it proved.

If you're happy with the only moral justification, then fine, but I hope you are writing to your MPs imploring that action be taken against other evil dictators and regimes of oppression.

Gritt23 · Jul 8, 2003

Ditto, WiltsRoyal.

Thanks for never resorting to the view that because I question our involvement, I either loved Saddam, or wanted anything other than out troops to succeed once we went there. That was the sort of response to any dissenting voices that angered me the most.

Cheers for the intelligent debate, as you say there are too many unanswered questions to expect anything other than a divergence of opinion on something like this.

Wilts · Jul 8, 2003

Hamilton said:
The only justification for the war was that Saddam was an evil dictator.

Every other argument does not stand up - WMD, threat to British security, links with Al Queda - none of it proved.

If you're happy with the only moral justification, then fine, but I hope you are writing to your MPs imploring that action be taken against other evil dictators and regimes of oppression.

Yep, absolutely. North Korea for one. Just an unstable country, in a world where clearly we'll never have "world peace", but at least trying to achieve stability has to be the aim.

Hopefully though, action shouldn't need to be taken against any other nations, as the Iraq affair should highlight the need to comply with regulations and everyone can just live happily. The US's arrogant "don't f*** with us, or we'll do to you what we did to Saddam" should act as a pretty good deterrant in the meantime.

Israel and Palestine is the next step, and the US needs to be strong and to start laying down the law back home, rather than putting any bias towards the Jews because of their influence in the USA.

bhaexpresso · Jul 8, 2003

The war was justified if you want to put pertrol/gas in your car. Otherwise no. Let's not kid ourselves, this was about oil and not the overthrow of a despot. If that was the case why stop with Iraq ? There's no shortage of other 'Saddams' in the world. We could start with Robert Mugabe for instance .....

Hamilton · Jul 8, 2003

bhaexpress, I tend to agree with you. I don't believe it was solely about oil, but you can't have one third of the world's oil control by a lunatic. I wish they would be honest and just say that.

I think that it is incredibly naive to think that the war was in any way about securing some form of world peace. Whether there is war breaking out in Africa is of no interest to the USA, but Iraq (oil) and North Korea (far east trade) is of interest. It'll be a cold day in hell before the US starts trying to sort out the Congo, Chechyna, Zimbabwe etc.

PS: Remember the US's previous old enemy Iran and the Ayatollah? Who did the US lobbying to get him persecuted so that he would flee the Middle East? Yes you guessed it - good old Uncle Sam. Those chickens came home to roost, just as I am sure that Saddam's chickens will make a quick return. The US has got to learn that it can't keep fudging this issue with military might, and we have to learn that our destiny lies with neighbours that may not be American.

...I think...

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