Official Running Thread

dazzer6666 · Mar 6, 2020

Bad Ash said:
Did they give the definition of slow?

In the Jack Daniels videos he said easy run should be 60% of max heart rate. Now I assume he means take 60% of the difference between your resting HR and max HR and adding this to your resting? So if you resting is 70 and max is 180, you can 60% of 110 = 66, which you add to the 70 to give 136bpm?

If it was really 60% of max hr, then 60% of 180 is 106bpm, I think I get to that just by getting out of the chair, let alone walking!

Use this to give you an idea............it at least gives you ranges to aim within.

https://www.myprocoach.net/calculators/running-zones/

As [MENTION=635]Gary Nelson[/MENTION]'s Teacher implies, lots of us (me included) do far too much running at the 'mediocre' level. It's not in itself a bad thing but it's not an efficient way to improve. Think I've said before, the guy who writes my programme constantly bleats on about running slow runs slower, and fast runs faster. One issue I have is my cadence is high (which follows a transition to a ChiRunning style several years ago) which makes slower running actually uncomfortable - I am desperately trying to 'reduce the gears' and slow down, particularly now as I'm embarking on (hopefully) a new phase of training and will be upping the volume a bit.

Artie Fufkin · Mar 6, 2020

Ninja Elephant said:
Excellent - I'm aiming to fetch you at 7:30 at the latest, the drive should take just under 2 hours so we'll be there for 9:30 ready to bring the pain. I'm also tempted to take this one a bit easy and then go for a time the following week in Oundle. Part inspired by [MENTION=11816]Artie Fufkin[/MENTION]'s discussion about time running. I haven't run more than 2 hours so far, so I think aiming to run 20 miles in 2:10 may help for the pace work, but I might get more out of it by running 2:30 - 2:40. I'm not sure - what do you reckon you'll be aiming for?

hey mate, sensible approach I think. Great to have 2 x back to back 20 milers lined up. The benefits of safely navigating frequent long runs (which I think are the most important "quality" days in marathon training) supersedes the pace that you run them. You will probably work a bit harder than you would on a normal long run day due to the race environment anyway so that's a positive, plus you can dial into and practice the racing environment, race fuelling (when to take gels) etc. :thumbsup:

Bozza · Mar 6, 2020

Bad Ash said:
Assuming you did that during a training run, I think you'd find a huge chunk would come off if done in a race or parkrun. I wouldn't be surprised if you were approaching 20 mins. But perhaps maybe you can push it much harder in training than I can!.

I took off pretty fast, for me, without realising it - I think it just felt so good to be out in the cool air, even if it was raining.

I checked my watch around half a mile in and I was going at something like 6:40 pace, so I thought I'd ease off very slightly and see if I could hold onto 6:50 pace for the full 3.1. Turns out I couldn't quite, my splits were 6:50 - 6:53 - 7:08. It was a four-mile loop so once I hit 3.1 I slowed right down and completed the last mile in 9.10.

I was working pretty hard in that last mile and a bit though, which was uphill (Strava shows the GAP splits as: 7:00 - 6:56 - 7:01) and also into the wind last night.

I do have some curiosity about how much difference the "race environment" could make to my pace - I can see how the pace of others a bit faster might tow me along.

Bozza · Mar 6, 2020

dazzer6666 said:
One issue I have is my cadence is high (which follows a transition to a ChiRunning style several years ago) which makes slower running actually uncomfortable - I am desperately trying to 'reduce the gears' and slow down, particularly now as I'm embarking on (hopefully) a new phase of training and will be upping the volume a bit.

I'm really, really pleased to read this!

I often think I really struggle to run slowly, by which I mean slowly for me. I just can't seem to do it easily and, where I do manage it, it can feel like I'm working harder than if I sit at what feels a more natural pace.

However, it felt wanky to say "I struggle to run slowly" so I've not mentioned it before!

knocky1 · Mar 6, 2020

Artie Fufkin said:
hey mate, sensible approach I think. Great to have 2 x back to back 20 milers lined up. The benefits of safely navigating frequent long runs (which I think are the most important "quality" days in marathon training) supersedes the pace that you run them. You will probably work a bit harder than you would on a normal long run day due to the race environment anyway so that's a positive, plus you can dial into and practice the racing environment, race fuelling (when to take gels) etc.

OK guru. I'm setting off at 10:30 pace on Sunday's 20m jog and will not go under 9:45 pace in the second half.

I might invert the NSC running table too.

Guinness Boy · Mar 6, 2020

The sharp eyed on strava among you (or fans of the coronavirus threads) may have noticed I've not run all week. On Monday evening I was hit quite suddenly by a bug that left me with a headache and zero energy. Two days off work and another working from home and I feel normal-ish again so planning my first run of the week as a very easy half hour jog.

Not exactly where I expected to be but I was instantly reminded of a marathon training achillies heel, whereby I get any bug going while I'm in "peak training" mode but also get it more mildly and get over it quicker. Not sure if this will apply to actual coronovirus, should it strike, but one of the less pleasant aspects of long distance training.

Bozza · Mar 6, 2020

Guinness Boy said:
The sharp eyed on strava among you (or fans of the coronavirus threads) may have noticed I've not run all week. On Monday evening I was hit quite suddenly by a bug that left me with a headache and zero energy. Two days off work and another working from home and I feel normal-ish again so planning my first run of the week as a very easy half hour jog.

Not exactly where I expected to be but I was instantly reminded of a marathon training achillies heel, whereby I get any bug going while I'm in "peak training" mode but also get it more mildly and get over it quicker. Not sure if this will apply to actual coronovirus, should it strike, but one of the less pleasant aspects of long distance training.

In a bizarre coincidence, I opened this thread to post this link with a triumphant message about how all us runners can be smug about our enhanced immune systems!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/04/well/move/exercise-immunity-infection-coronavirus.html

CHAPPERS · Mar 6, 2020

Bozza said:
I took off pretty fast, for me, without realising it - I think it just felt so good to be out in the cool air, even if it was raining.

I checked my watch around half a mile in and I was going at something like 6:40 pace, so I thought I'd ease off very slightly and see if I could hold onto 6:50 pace for the full 3.1. Turns out I couldn't quite, my splits were 6:50 - 6:53 - 7:08. It was a four-mile loop so once I hit 3.1 I slowed right down and completed the last mile in 9.10.

I was working pretty hard in that last mile and a bit though, which was uphill (Strava shows the GAP splits as: 7:00 - 6:56 - 7:01) and also into the wind last night.

I do have some curiosity about how much difference the "race environment" could make to my pace - I can see how the pace of others a bit faster might tow me along.

I find the pacers at Parkrun, if sometime a bit inconsistent, really helpful. I'm slow as **** but did a big PB following and then passing a pacer. Might be worth finding one with pace runners and see how you get on.

dazzer6666 · Mar 6, 2020

Bozza said:
I'm really, really pleased to read this!

I often think I really struggle to run slowly, by which I mean slowly for me. I just can't seem to do it easily and, where I do manage it, it can feel like I'm working harder than if I sit at what feels a more natural pace.

However, it felt wanky to say "I struggle to run slowly" so I've not mentioned it before!

It's 100% a 'thing'. I talked it through with my coach (after the umpteenth bollocking for an easy run that looked too fast), he said it's fine - work on PRE (perceived rate of effort) and think about the 'chat test' (ie on an easy run you should be able to hold a full conversation because your breathing is way below threshold). If I run on flat road at say 10 min miles it feels way too hard and like I'm lumbering along heavily. 9-9.15 is far more comfortable. I just need to work on the faster speeds though :down:

You're also prone to changing your gait if you try to run too slowly so may become inefficient - ergo, it'll feel harder.

Guinness Boy · Mar 6, 2020

Bozza said:
In a bizarre coincidence, I opened this thread to post this link with a triumphant message about how all us runners can be smug about our enhanced immune systems!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/04/well/move/exercise-immunity-infection-coronavirus.html

Interesting stuff. I'd taken that theory that your immune system is reduced straight after a long run as gospel. I always have Actimel straight after a long run and try to take it daily. Despite that, each year I have done a spring marathon, I have caught something nasty that was going around during training but always recovered from it quickly.

dazzer6666 said:
It's 100% a 'thing'. I talked it through with my coach (after the umpteenth bollocking for an easy run that looked too fast), he said it's fine - work on PRE (perceived rate of effort) and think about the 'chat test' (ie on an easy run you should be able to hold a full conversation because your breathing is way below threshold). If I run on flat road at say 10 min miles it feels way too hard and like I'm lumbering along heavily. 9-9.15 is far more comfortable. I just need to work on the faster speeds though You're also prone to changing your gait if you try to run too slowly so may become inefficient - ergo, it'll feel harder.

Yup. I train on PRE all the time (as you know my coach is a big fan of it). I knew my paces had shifted when a comfortable conversational effort moved from about 9.45 - 10.00 min miles to 9.00 - 9.15, where it currently is. I've just run a 5k fitness test at the lowest possible PRE I could, just in case, and managed 9.37 / 9.03 / 9.44 and trust me, the brakes were on full.

Badger · Mar 6, 2020

dazzer6666 said:
Use this to give you an idea............it at least gives you ranges to aim within.

https://www.myprocoach.net/calculators/running-zones/

As [MENTION=635]Gary Nelson[/MENTION]'s Teacher implies, lots of us (me included) do far too much running at the 'mediocre' level. It's not in itself a bad thing but it's not an efficient way to improve. Think I've said before, the guy who writes my programme constantly bleats on about running slow runs slower, and fast runs faster. One issue I have is my cadence is high (which follows a transition to a ChiRunning style several years ago) which makes slower running actually uncomfortable - I am desperately trying to 'reduce the gears' and slow down, particularly now as I'm embarking on (hopefully) a new phase of training and will be upping the volume a bit.

I know exactly what you mean. I also run with a pretty high cadence and only really feel comfortable at faster paces. I'll sometimes look at my watch, see I'm going a little bit too fast and attempt to slow myself down but it doesn't take long before the speed creeps up a bit. I don't worry too much about it though as long as I'm feeling comfortable.

Artie Fufkin · Mar 6, 2020

knocky1 said:
OK guru. I'm setting off at 10:30 pace on Sunday's 20m jog and will not go under 9:45 pace in the second half.

I might invert the NSC running table too.

Gaffer!

Apologies my OTT enthusiasm has once again made me come across all preachy hasn't it. What a bore-fest. I've got to sort it out. :thumbsup:

Ninja Elephant · Mar 6, 2020

Feel better, [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION]- your legs will be enjoying the rest I'm sure, it won't have done any harm at all. Do you reckon you'll be fine to resume next week?

I've been "working" from home today (I've thrown 50 legs of darts!) and listened to the whole podcast - it's fascinating listening and I've definitely fallen into the trap of doing too many runs at a pace which adds no value at all. This time last year I was never running slower than 8 minutes per mile and on the one hand, it meant I felt confident on marathon day that I could control my pace, but on the other hand I didn't perform at all when it came to pace work. I've said on here a few times that I struggle to run a pace in training which I sustain on a race day. The prime example being the Arena 10k last year where I ran 37:33. I couldn't get near 6 minute miles in the build up to it but on the day I found myself running at that pace consistently and threw in a couple of sub-6 miles.

When they started discussing the worst advice they've received, everything was familiar. I think some of it is engrained because you think that to run fast on the day, you have to run fast in training but it's just not true. I've increased my speed unbelievably in the last twelve months and that's largely been through volume running and a fast session per week plus a real go at parkrun on a saturday.

In the end I didn't run 10 miles yesterday, I wasn't feeling 100% and didn't fuel well during the day so I just went out for a slow hour and unlike the other gents in the thread - I have no problem at all running slowly. :lolol:

It's a refreshing change and it also re-engages why running is such an activity I enjoy.

knocky1 · Mar 6, 2020

I'm better at talking than running and continue to spout out non-stop rubbish at any pace up to 7" mile up to 10K distance and 7:30 up to a half distance. If only doing a mile I can talk at 6:30 pace but would encourage replies. Even when I fail near the end of a marathons my mouth keeps going.

The wife loves it when I go for a run....

knocky1 · Mar 6, 2020

Artie Fufkin said:
Gaffer!

Apologies my OTT enthusiasm has once again made me come across all preachy hasn't it. What a bore-fest. I've got to sort it out.

I'm happy to hear your words of wisdom. I'm not in a position to say anything to the young gazells.Keep it up!

Simgull · Mar 6, 2020

Bad Ash said:
Did they give the definition of slow?

In the Jack Daniels videos he said easy run should be 60% of max heart rate. Now I assume he means take 60% of the difference between your resting HR and max HR and adding this to your resting? So if you resting is 70 and max is 180, you can 60% of 110 = 66, which you add to the 70 to give 136bpm?

If it was really 60% of max hr, then 60% of 180 is 106bpm, I think I get to that just by getting out of the chair, let alone walking!

Another rule of thumb is 180 minus your age.

On ‘mediocre’ runs - they aren’t harmful - just a less efficient way to increase fitness. And another useful point is that your improvement really happens during the rest and recovery - so running too often will be counter-productive.

More progress today with a 10k run on the Downs - who could resist going out in that sunshine today?

chaileyjem · Mar 6, 2020

No one mentioned there was a NSC "club" on Strava !
- Joined.

Bozza · Mar 6, 2020

chaileyjem said:
No one mentioned there was a NSC "club" on Strava !
- Joined.

Sorry, I thought you were in already!

I must admit to not looking at the club stuff often - I only noticed yesterday that there is a "Clubs" tab on the right at the top of the home screen! It probably explains why some woman called Kelly in the US is generally the first person to "like" each run I do. I joined some sort of Disney-related Strava club many years back.

knocky1 · Mar 6, 2020

chaileyjem said:
No one mentioned there was a NSC "club" on Strava !
- Joined.

You were in it last month. I saw your photo. Maybe you didn’t know?

knocky1 · Mar 7, 2020

Wonder if [MENTION=616]Guinness Boy[/MENTION] coughed, sneezed or spat when running past my house yesterday. Woke up with his symptoms and duly missed the A80 Bevendean Parkrun challenge.
Was feeling good for that and now have a 50 point deduction for 2020.

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