Official Running Thread

Ninja Elephant · Mar 5, 2020

I've decided all my running shoes need replacing, first pair bought last month, a second bought this month and another will come along next month. I've also impulse entered another 20 mile race next Sunday. Lydd and then Oundle in consecutive weeks for me, then probably Hastings Half Marathon. All in my trusty Asics shoes, not any controversial Nike shoes on my horizon! :thumbsup:

Artie Fufkin · Mar 5, 2020

Badger said:
I'm getting the Vaporfly 4% rather than the Alphafly, I didn't want to beat EVERYONE, that would have been unfair (plus they were quite a bit cheaper). I'm not fully confident they will fit my slightly wide feet, so there's a chance I'll be sending them back. We shall see.

Obviously I'll want to wear them in Boston. How many miles would you suggest putting in to them before then? I'm very aware they have a short lifespan.

hey Badger, yep they're not particularly durable unfortunately so best to try to keep them as "box fresh" as possible for your A race (Boston) but I think it's important you give them a few test runs to see how they feel. That's probably more important. I'd suggest perhaps making sure you're 100% happy with them as your shoe for Boston before they're approaching around 50 miles if you can. I guess it also depends on the returns policy.

knocky1 · Mar 5, 2020

Badger said:
I'm getting the Vaporfly 4% rather than the Alphafly, I didn't want to beat EVERYONE, that would have been unfair (plus they were quite a bit cheaper). I'm not fully confident they will fit my slightly wide feet, so there's a chance I'll be sending them back. We shall see.

Obviously I'll want to wear them in Boston. How many miles would you suggest putting in to them before then? I'm very aware they have a short lifespan.

I've Vaporfly Next 0%. Training in [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] 's Fly Zoom 3 is the way to get used to them but I already have 6 pairs of trainers, so that has to wait. He'll be best for feedback for both of us on how they feel on impact.

I'll be doing a few speedwork sessions in mine in March and then a couple of the taper long runs before Brighton Marathon. I'll be seeing a few of the club runners Saturday and will get a performance update from them.
Not so important for me as you. I'm not racing and will have time to change shoes at 18 miles, if needed as I run by my house. Just hope I'm not tempted to put the walking boots of shame on yet again.............

I see Boston is the Monday after Brighton.

big nuts · Mar 5, 2020

I got out early to run for just over 45 minutes. Nursed my left foot throughout and whilst I could feel it, it wasn’t too bad and it feels ok now.

I’ll be on the start line for the 20 mile race Sunday but whether I attack it or not depends on if I have full confidence on my recovery on the day.

Bozza · Mar 5, 2020

Badger said:
I'm getting the Vaporfly 4% rather than the Alphafly, I didn't want to beat EVERYONE, that would have been unfair (plus they were quite a bit cheaper). I'm not fully confident they will fit my slightly wide feet, so there's a chance I'll be sending them back. We shall see.

knocky1 said:
I've Vaporfly Next 0%. Training in [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] 's Fly Zoom 3 is the way to get used to them but I already have 6 pairs of trainers, so that has to wait. He'll be best for feedback for both of us on how they feel on impact.

Alphafly are the ones that aren't out yet - the new super-duper ones for the Tokyo Olympics etc - https://www.nike.com/gb/running/alphafly

The ones you can buy right now are the Vaporfly 4% and the Vaporfly Next% - sounds like you have the former.

I know they're not the same, but my Zoom Fly 3s seem similar-ish in design and make-up, and I'm pretty sure I did read some reviews that suggested they could be troublesome for wider feet. I've had really wide feet since forever, and the Fly 3s seem to be OK for me so far, but I'm only 30 miles into them according to Strava.

I've not noticed any stiffness etc in mine.

Badger · Mar 5, 2020

Bozza said:
Alphafly are the ones that aren't out yet - the new super-duper ones for the Tokyo Olympics etc - https://www.nike.com/gb/running/alphafly

The ones you can buy right now are the Vaporfly 4% and the Vaporfly Next% - sounds like you have the former.

I know they're not the same, but my Zoom Fly 3s seem similar-ish in design and make-up, and I'm pretty sure I did read some reviews that suggested they could be troublesome for wider feet. I've had really wide feet since forever, and the Fly 3s seem to be OK for me so far, but I'm only 30 miles into them according to Strava.

I've not noticed any stiffness etc in mine.

Yes, you are correct, I have the 4% rather than the Next%.

I've never needed to buy a wider fit for running shoes, so I'm hoping I'll be fine. I have a friend who has similarly wide feet and he hasn't had any problems with the 4% because they have the comfortable, soft upper. The only time I've had width issues was with the Saucony Ride 9 which had a narrow and very stiff toe box (unlike the next model which was fine for me).

Thanks for the advice [MENTION=11816]Artie Fufkin[/MENTION] and [MENTION=15605]knocky1[/MENTION] too. I think I'll try and take them out for at least one long run and one workout run before Boston.

It looks like they're not arriving until next Wednesday. They've got to get here from Vancouver and apparently this store uses snail mail. I'll be like an excited child when they do arrive!

big nuts · Mar 5, 2020

Artie Fufkin said:
hi guys, just to follow up from yesterday's borefest from me about the physiological benefits of easy running I just thought I'd share this new episode "The Science of Perfect Training" from Professor Ross Tucker's podcast The Real Science of Sport.

As a fully fledged running nerd always trying to learn as much as I can about the sports science behind running his podcast is great and I think this particular episode is excellent.

It's quite a long listen but I definitely recommend checking it out - https://twitter.com/Scienceofsport/status/1233273374228598784

He talks about the fundamentals of training to improve endurance through physiological adaptation, the popular 80/20 effort weekly rule, the benefits of consistency through time spent running (not speed), each run should have a purpose, and the importance of polarised training (as [MENTION=27279]dazzer6666[/MENTION] mentioned yesterday - keep your easy effort days easy so that your hard effort days are hard).

The only thing he doesn't touch on in this episode but it will be on the next episode is the importance of sleep, rest & recovery, which is a key priority for good training. It might sound weird but the improvements don't happen when we're actually running. The improvements happen when we're resting, recovering and mostly when we're sleeping. That is when the body is doing it's magic absorbing the load and stress from the recent activity and producing the adaptations.

Thanks for this. Had a listen last night and this morning. Very, very in depth but very interesting.

I’d recommend for anyone else persevering as it’s a slow start but some real food for thought around the gains from slow paced running in zones 1 & 2.

“The slowest runners on the planet are Kenyan’s the day after a race” I liked this bit. They run 5:30-6 minute kilometres after running 2:30-3:00 the night before.

Artie Fufkin · Mar 5, 2020

big nuts said:
Thanks for this. Had a listen last night and this morning. Very, very in depth but very interesting.

I’d recommend for anyone else persevering as it’s a slow start but some real food for thought around the gains from slow paced running in zones 1 & 2.

“The slowest runners on the planet are Kenyan’s the day after a race” I liked this bit. They run 5:30-6 minute kilometres after running 2:30-3:00 the night before.

Cool mate! I'm pleased you checked it out. Yeah it takes a little while for them to get into a groove and Ross does go quite deep into the science at times (as I running geek I find that side of running fascinating) but I think there's some really useful general takeaways of insight into optimising our own training.

Yep if you watch videos of East African runners they are jogging at best ("shuffling") on their recovery runs. They're running on average 100-120 miles a week in a training cycle but a relatively small percentage of those miles are at hard efforts. But when they do run hard efforts they are ridiculously hard.

Simgull · Mar 5, 2020

big nuts said:
Thanks for this. Had a listen last night and this morning. Very, very in depth but very interesting.

I’d recommend for anyone else persevering as it’s a slow start but some real food for thought around the gains from slow paced running in zones 1 & 2.

“The slowest runners on the planet are Kenyan’s the day after a race” I liked this bit. They run 5:30-6 minute kilometres after running 2:30-3:00 the night before.

Yes, I just finished it today - good listen although I got a it lost in some of the biochemistry!
The summary at the end was useful, if I can remember it....
- every run should have a defined purpose
- one hard run every 7-10 days, the rest are slow and you can always run slower!
- don’t drift into the mediocre zone between fast and slow
- listen to your body - and if others observe you are being cranky.
- don’t underestimate the importance of the social side of running.

On a positive note, I’ve had my stitches out, ran 1km on a treadmill today and will try a bit more tomorrow. Oh and I managed three days skiing - which was more comfortable than walking!

Ninja Elephant · Mar 5, 2020

big nuts said:
I got out early to run for just over 45 minutes. Nursed my left foot throughout and whilst I could feel it, it wasn’t too bad and it feels ok now.

I’ll be on the start line for the 20 mile race Sunday but whether I attack it or not depends on if I have full confidence on my recovery on the day.

Excellent - I'm aiming to fetch you at 7:30 at the latest, the drive should take just under 2 hours so we'll be there for 9:30 ready to bring the pain. I'm also tempted to take this one a bit easy and then go for a time the following week in Oundle. Part inspired by [MENTION=11816]Artie Fufkin[/MENTION]'s discussion about time running. I haven't run more than 2 hours so far, so I think aiming to run 20 miles in 2:10 may help for the pace work, but I might get more out of it by running 2:30 - 2:40. I'm not sure - what do you reckon you'll be aiming for?

Artie Fufkin · Mar 5, 2020

Simgull said:
Yes, I just finished it today - good listen although I got a it lost in some of the biochemistry!
The summary at the end was useful, if I can remember it....
- every run should have a defined purpose
- one hard run every 7-10 days, the rest are slow and you can always run slower!
- don’t drift into the mediocre zone between fast and slow
- listen to your body - and if others observe you are being cranky.
- don’t underestimate the importance of the social side of running.

On a positive note, I’ve had my stitches out, ran 1km on a treadmill today and will try a bit more tomorrow. Oh and I managed three days skiing - which was more comfortable than walking!

Brilliant mate! Great that you were able to give it a listen and found some useful takeaways from it, and very pleased you're on the road to recovery after your accident! :thumbsup:

big nuts · Mar 5, 2020

Ninja Elephant said:
Excellent - I'm aiming to fetch you at 7:30 at the latest, the drive should take just under 2 hours so we'll be there for 9:30 ready to bring the pain. I'm also tempted to take this one a bit easy and then go for a time the following week in Oundle. Part inspired by [MENTION=11816]Artie Fufkin[/MENTION]'s discussion about time running. I haven't run more than 2 hours so far, so I think aiming to run 20 miles in 2:10 may help for the pace work, but I might get more out of it by running 2:30 - 2:40. I'm not sure - what do you reckon you'll be aiming for?

I’ll be in a better position to answer Saturday. Initially I was hoping to run at marathon pace so 6:50-7:00 pace. I’d like to ideally still aim for that but if I have even the slightest twinge I’ll probably run it at a more sedate pace. Somewhere ranging between 7:30-8:00.

Bozza · Mar 5, 2020

Just took 24 seconds of my 5km PB (21:57 -> 21:33).

I'd put off my run all day and Accuweather said it had stopped raining with no more due. It lied.

I'd had a veggie burger and an absolute mountain of chips from the chip shop not long before, and I wasn't even wearing my "fast shoes".

I might go for the hangover + chips combo at the weekend to see if that provides an ever greater boost to my pace.

Garry Nelson's teacher · Mar 6, 2020

Simgull said:
Yes, I just finished it today - good listen although I got a it lost in some of the biochemistry!
The summary at the end was useful, if I can remember it....
- every run should have a defined purpose
- one hard run every 7-10 days, the rest are slow and you can always run slower!
- don’t drift into the mediocre zone between fast and slow
- listen to your body - and if others observe you are being cranky.
- don’t underestimate the importance of the social side of running.

On a positive note, I’ve had my stitches out, ran 1km on a treadmill today and will try a bit more tomorrow. Oh and I managed three days skiing - which was more comfortable than walking!

Many thanks. This is very useful, if a little depressing when I think that 90% of my training runs over the last 35 years have been in the 'mediocre zone'.

Bad Ash · Mar 6, 2020

Bozza said:
Just took 24 seconds of my 5km PB (21:57 -> 21:33)

Assuming you did that during a training run, I think you'd find a huge chunk would come off if done in a race or parkrun. I wouldn't be surprised if you were approaching 20 mins. But perhaps maybe you can push it much harder in training than I can!

Speaking of parkrun, I download the official IOS app a while ago and it was buggy and rubbish. Recently downloaded the unofficial '5k parkrunner' and it's pretty cool. It has a section on all the 'competitions' and your % progress, e.g. Alphabeteer (doing a parkrun starting with each letter of the alphabet), Regionnaire (run a parkrun in every country), Tourist (20 different locations), etc. If aiming for a PB wasn't enough, gives you some other goals.

Bad Ash · Mar 6, 2020

Simgull said:
Yes, I just finished it today - good listen although I got a it lost in some of the biochemistry!
The summary at the end was useful, if I can remember it....
- every run should have a defined purpose
- one hard run every 7-10 days, the rest are slow and you can always run slower!
- don’t drift into the mediocre zone between fast and slow
- listen to your body - and if others observe you are being cranky.
- don’t underestimate the importance of the social side of running.

On a positive note, I’ve had my stitches out, ran 1km on a treadmill today and will try a bit more tomorrow. Oh and I managed three days skiing - which was more comfortable than walking!

Did they give the definition of slow?

In the Jack Daniels videos he said easy run should be 60% of max heart rate. Now I assume he means take 60% of the difference between your resting HR and max HR and adding this to your resting? So if you resting is 70 and max is 180, you can 60% of 110 = 66, which you add to the 70 to give 136bpm?

If it was really 60% of max hr, then 60% of 180 is 106bpm, I think I get to that just by getting out of the chair, let alone walking!

Artie Fufkin · Mar 6, 2020

Bozza said:
Just took 24 seconds of my 5km PB (21:57 -> 21:33).

I'd put off my run all day and Accuweather said it had stopped raining with no more due. It lied.

I'd had a veggie burger and an absolute mountain of chips from the chip shop not long before, and I wasn't even wearing my "fast shoes".

I might go for the hangover + chips combo at the weekend to see if that provides an ever greater boost to my pace.

Nice Bozza! I think it's safely navigating and adapting to some consistent time spent running that is paying dividends. :thumbsup:

knocky1 · Mar 6, 2020

Artie Fufkin said:
Nice Bozza! I think it's safely navigating and adapting to some consistent time spent running that is paying dividends.

I'd like all encouragement for [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] to do a 5K race to stop. It's hard enough to get up the NSC table as it is.

A NSC Parkrun race off after BM would be fun..................

knocky1 · Mar 6, 2020

Bad Ash said:
If it was really 60% of max hr, then 60% of 180 is 106bpm, I think I get to that just by getting out of the chair, let alone walking!

Speak for yourself! My dropping Max heart rate is no longer in the training schedule of my Pete Pfitzinger book.

160 for me and 167 for [MENTION=26634]Simgull[/MENTION].

You're right that it is incredibly hard, nigh impossible, to run at a low heart rate pace. Swimming is good as I remain under 70bpm. Running always 130+.

Artie Fufkin · Mar 6, 2020

big nuts said:
I’ll be in a better position to answer Saturday. Initially I was hoping to run at marathon pace so 6:50-7:00 pace. I’d like to ideally still aim for that but if I have even the slightest twinge I’ll probably run it at a more sedate pace. Somewhere ranging between 7:30-8:00.

Hey mate, I think the more conservative approach would be the way to go. I think aiming to run the full 20 miles at goal marathon pace is too big an effort 6 weeks out from Brighton if that is your A race. If you approach it more as a comfortably hard long run at perhaps 70% of goal marathon pace effort that would be a seriously good long workout and will help you recover and help keep you in decent shape to have a solid week of training next week. You don't want this run to beat you up so much that it risks being out of the game next week.
A 20 mile run would be considered a "quality" long hard effort even at an easy-steady pace. If you're feeling good there's no harm in throwing in some blocks of goal marathon pace miles within the run or perhaps aim to work a bit harder in the 2nd half of the race.

Have a great run! :thumbsup:

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