Official Running Thread

Indurain's Lungs · May 24, 2015

Bozza said:
Do you really think you could pick up 5-6 minutes in two weeks? I didn't believe I had anything like a 51:50 in me until that's what I did earlier this week, but the first thought I had was those extra two minutes will be very hard work to find. All credit to you if you can though - it would be very impressive and all smugness would be well-earned!

This has caught my interest because I never carb-load, even ahead of my longer 10 or 13 mile Sunday runs. Last night, for example, I just picked at a few bits and had just a small banana before I went out this morning. I really didn't think any particular fuelling would be needed for something as short as a 10km run but I might pay more attention to this if it's recommended for better performance.

Car loading is fairly out dated in sports science now.

Years ago it involved completely emptying your glycogen stores (the dreaded bonk!) then loading up. There is a measurable increase in muscle glycogen after that but not really without the prior emptying.

Studies showed that the extra muscle glycogen was only a benefit in events where you were likely to run out (2-4 hours plus depending on how well trained you are) and was of no benefit over eating during the event/training.

Probably best to ensure that you are at least topped back up from previous training but no more.

Guinness Boy · May 24, 2015

Bozza said:
Do you really think you could pick up 5-6 minutes in two weeks? I didn't believe I had anything like a 51:50 in me until that's what I did earlier this week, but the first thought I had was those extra two minutes will be very hard work to find. All credit to you if you can though - it would be very impressive and all smugness would be well-earned!

I went down from nearly 59 mins to nearly 55 from training to race last time. Legs very painful after and I got blocked at the start because I figured the old ladies at the back of the field would be my pace. I need the same sort of "gain". Not feeling the legs at all at the moment despite tramping round Brighton with the kids. Also all my fastest segments in training have come either pacing with or trying to catch another unsuspecting seafront runner.

The realistic outcome is probably a 52 but as Dazzer says there's no point setting an easy goal.

This has caught my interest because I never carb-load, even ahead of my longer 10 or 13 mile Sunday runs. Last night, for example, I just picked at a few bits and had just a small banana before I went out this morning. I really didn't think any particular fuelling would be needed for something as short as a 10km run but I might pay more attention to this if it's recommended for better performance.

Nah, a throwaway remark sorry. Two burgers, three hotdogs, a glass of Pims and five pints of Real Ale is NOT the way to prepare for a 10k but I doubt carb loading would help at that distance. A good balanced diet would though which is what my wife (mostly) has me on.

A half is probably where you need to start delaying burning fat and keep burning carb. This is good.

http://www.runnersworld.com/nutriti...L_Nutrition_-_05212015_TheRightWaytoCarboLoad

Indurain's Lungs · May 24, 2015

Guinness Boy said:
Nah, a throwaway remark sorry. Two burgers, three hotdogs, a glass of Pims and five pints of Real Ale is NOT the way to prepare for a 10k but I doubt carb loading would help at that distance. A good balanced diet would though which is what my wife (mostly) has me on.

A half is probably where you need to start delaying burning fat and keep burning carb. This is good.

http://www.runnersworld.com/nutriti...L_Nutrition_-_05212015_TheRightWaytoCarboLoad

Not quite the ideal load then!

The article is actually slightly wrong. You don't switch to fat when you run out of glycogen, you're always burning far but with carbs on top. A large benefit of endurance training is to increase the proportion of energy coming from fat, hence many top athletes can manage 4 hours without any nutrition.

When the carbs run out then you're down to just the fat part, without the extra care bit on top.

As I say, your muscles should be full but 95% of calories from carbs for 3 days before isn't wise, your body shouldn't be changing its routine too much in the run up to an event.

If tapering effectively then continuing decent nutrition and lessening training will keep muscle glycogen stores up

dazzer6666 · May 24, 2015

Throwing my tuppence worth in, carb loading is a) pointless and b) most likely counter-productive in endurance events (bloating and water retention)

I always do my long runs (regardless of distance) 'empty', and top-up little and often with real food. Burning glycogen (sugar, gels and shit like that) only works for short runs (up to 2 hours - body can't store any more - hence the 'wall' that marathon runners hit), much better to educate your body to burn fat for endurance events. This means running empty, and initially at a lower intensity until you adapt better. If your race is less than 2 hours and fast, you have enough glycogen to get you through it anyway.

On the calorie front, about 100 per mile or 60 per km is about right for a gentle run.

Indurain's Lungs · May 24, 2015

dazzer6666 said:
Throwing my tuppence worth in, carb loading is a) pointless and b) most likely counter-productive in endurance events (bloating and water retention)

I always do my long runs (regardless of distance) 'empty', and top-up little and often with real food. Burning glycogen (sugar, gels and shit like that) only works for short runs (up to 2 hours - body can't store any more - hence the 'wall' that marathon runners hit), much better to educate your body to burn fat for endurance events. This means running empty, and initially at a lower intensity until you adapt better. If your race is less than 2 hours and fast, you have enough glycogen to get you through it anyway.

On the calorie front, about 100 per mile or 60 per km is about right for a gentle run.

All very true.

Though I have read that the 100/mile rule applies to all intensities for a c. 75kg bloke.

Bozza · May 24, 2015

dazzer6666 said:
Throwing my tuppence worth in, carb loading is a) pointless and b) most likely counter-productive in endurance events (bloating and water retention)

I always do my long runs (regardless of distance) 'empty', and top-up little and often with real food. Burning glycogen (sugar, gels and shit like that) only works for short runs (up to 2 hours - body can't store any more - hence the 'wall' that marathon runners hit), much better to educate your body to burn fat for endurance events. This means running empty, and initially at a lower intensity until you adapt better. If your race is less than 2 hours and fast, you have enough glycogen to get you through it anyway.

On the calorie front, about 100 per mile or 60 per km is about right for a gentle run.

I'm pleased. If only because it seems my go out whenever I fancy it for whatever I feel I can manage approach is not horribly wrong.

Pasta is for wusses.

Bozza · May 24, 2015

Indurain's Lungs said:
All very true.

Though I have read that the 100/mile rule applies to all intensities for a c. 75kg bloke.

I'm not sure many of us slow plodders are around the 75kg mark.

Indurain's Lungs · May 24, 2015

Bozza said:
I'm not sure many of us slow plodders are around the 75kg mark.

Bonus! Means you're burning even more calories per mile then!

dazzer6666 · May 24, 2015

Bozza said:
I'm not sure many of us slow plodders are around the 75kg mark.

LOL, been told I should try to get down to that. Not a hope [emoji490][emoji485][emoji481][emoji507][emoji488][emoji487][emoji514]

Bozza · May 24, 2015

dazzer6666 said:
LOL, been told I should try to get down to that. Not a hope [emoji490][emoji485][emoji481][emoji507][emoji488][emoji487][emoji514]

I started this running adventure above 100kg. I'm aiming for 79kg, give or take.

knocky1 · May 25, 2015

I am rather different that I have to eat non stop to maintain 71kg and when triathlon or marathon training have to eat spoonfuls of coconut oil for energy and to keep on weight. I only run with an Alf Tupper mindset not weight loss. Not as successfu though!

soistes · May 25, 2015

I'm 62kg, BMI of 19-19.5 at the lower end of the 'normal weight' range -- have always been in the 60-63 kg range since age 20 (I'm 59 now). If I run a lot, it slips down towards the 60kg mark. Generally I think that a naturally lower weight is helpful for distance running (certainly most of the Kenyans that win marathons seem to be whippet thin)

Bozza · May 25, 2015

Coincidentally, after deciding there's a lot of psychology to this, I came across this article this morning: Overcoming the voice to stop running

Herr Tubthumper · May 25, 2015

Bozza said:
Coincidentally, after deciding there's a lot of psychology to this, I came across this article this morning: Overcoming the voice to stop running

I find this side of long distance running fascinating.

Indurain's Lungs · May 25, 2015

soistes said:
I'm 62kg, BMI of 19-19.5 at the lower end of the 'normal weight' range -- have always been in the 60-63 kg range since age 20 (I'm 59 now). If I run a lot, it slips down towards the 60kg mark. Generally I think that a naturally lower weight is helpful for distance running (certainly most of the Kenyans that win marathons seem to be whippet thin)

Definitely helps. As you say, you only have to look at top distance runners - the studies show they have incredibly long a achilles tendons with very little peripheral weight. Apparently an extra 100g of calf weight drops your running efficency by 1%.

dazzer6666 · May 25, 2015

Indurain's Lungs said:
Definitely helps. As you say, you only have to look at top distance runners - the studies show they have incredibly long a chilled tendons with very little peripheral weight. Apparently an extra 100g of calf weight drops your running efficency by 1%.

I read somewhere that (assuming all other things equal) it's 8 secs per kg per km. Got to make a difference....problem for me is I like food too much, so weight doesn't change much (although I'm lighter now then any time since I left school). Also think as you become more adapted to running, especially long distance, that the calories-per-mile decrease quite a bit. My Garmin showed I burned about 2500 yesterday, I doubt it was anywhere near that (if it was, I'd be losing weight)

Bozza · May 25, 2015

Herr Tubthumper said:
I find this side of long distance running fascinating.

Agreed - the 'mind over matter' thing is very interesting. I made two large improvements this week that I didn't believe were possible yet and it was 100% a mental thing, just telling myself that I could maintain my pace where, in the past, I have started to slow.

Guinness Boy · May 25, 2015

Bozza said:
I started this running adventure above 100kg. I'm aiming for 79kg, give or take.

Same here for the start. Down to 90kg now and aiming for low 80s maximum which would take my BMI from overweight to healthy. At 6ft 1 with a love of red wine and bacon sarnies I'm never going to be a Kenyan but losing over 10kg is as much an achievement / inspiration / motivation for me as breaking times and distances. .

Greg Bobkin · May 25, 2015

Despite Airhop yesterday morning, and a bottle of red with a barbecue last night, I got out for 16 miles to Brighton and back. Still a keen wind, but done in 2:16 or something. 8:33/mile pace - chuffed with that.

Bozza · May 25, 2015

A hungover recovery 5 miles for me this lunchtime to pick up the car from where it was abandoned last night.

A struggle in the middle where I considered taking a short-cut but I stuck with it, putting in a sprint finish (relatively speaking) to get my pace down below 9min miles. It's warm out there today and I feel a lot better for the run.

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