[Politics] Tory meltdown finally arrived [was: incoming]...

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SeagullsoverLondon

SeagullsoverLondon

......
NSC Patron
Jun 20, 2021
3,351
MJsGhost said:
Surely means testing the pension is actually a progressive measure?

Any pensioners struggling are presumably not those who would not qualify for a means-tested pension?

IMO something like this needed but I never thought the Tories would want to put their name to it. Wealthy pensioners aren't their usual target when it comes to cutting spending.
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In one sense it is, but on the other hand, one of the reasons people have been paying National insurance for 70 years is that theoretically, it has been paying towards their pensions. Those who do not pay enough NI over their working life, get a reduced pension.
So, strictly speaking the state pension is not a benefit, but a reward for working for 35+ years and paying tax to the government.
Of course if NI is abolished, then in future you could argue that pensions become a benefit for those who haven't paid NI and could be means tested, but I don't think you can do that for existing pensioners. Unfortunately, that would lead to a two tier system.
 




Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,865
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
MJsGhost said:
Surely means testing the pension is actually a progressive measure?

Any pensioners struggling are presumably not those who would not qualify for a means-tested pension?

IMO something like this needed but I never thought the Tories would want to put their name to it. Wealthy pensioners aren't their usual target when it comes to cutting spending.
Click to expand...
Would you be happy living on £9K a year? A very small private pension of £3500 takes you above the tax threshold so paying income tax.
That is below the minimum wage.

There are a few wealthy pensioners but they aren’t the norm and I can guarantee they aren’t women.
 


Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,865
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
SeagullsoverLondon said:
In one sense it is, but on the other hand, one of the reasons people have been paying National insurance for 70 years is that theoretically, it has been paying towards their pensions. Those who do not pay enough NI over their working life, get a reduced pension.
So, strictly speaking the state pension is not a benefit, but a reward for working for 35+ years and paying tax to the government.
Of course if NI is abolished, then in future you could argue that pensions become a benefit for those who haven't paid NI and could be means tested, but I don't think you can do that for existing pensioners. Unfortunately, that would lead to a two tier system.
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It’s already a two tier system.
from April 2024: The full state pension rose from £203.85 a week to £221.20 a week, or £11,502 a year. The basic state pension rose from £156.20 a week to £169.50 a week, or £8,814 a year
 


beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,413
Thunder Bolt said:
Step by stealthy step, like boiling a frog.

First of all, they label the state pension a benefit, then the freeze the tax threshold, reduce the NI payments, then have the right to examine bank accounts of benefit claimants (including pensioners) and now, discussing the idea of means testing the state pension.
It is already the lowest in Europe, below the living wage, and any care has to be paid for.

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a lot of leaps being made there. just because a tweet makes a misinterpretation no need to follow them. pensioners, not pensions, being means tested has been talked about for years. example winter fuel payments, it has long been suggested should only go to those that actually need it. people, pensioners, quite often joke about it being the wine fund or christmas bonus.

edit, lol at the context, Braverman wanting to remove the two child benefit cap. they dont do consistent thinking.
 
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Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,865
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
beorhthelm said:
a lot of leaps being made there. just because a tweet makes a misinterpretation no need to follow them. pensioners, not pensions, being means tested has been talked about for years. example winter fuel payments, it has long been suggested should only go to those that actually need it. people, pensioners, quite often joke about it being the wine fund or christmas bonus.
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The only leap is the final discussion. The rest has already happened. Pensioners joke about the winter fuel allowance so it should be means tested? Exactly how many pensioners joke about wine funds? Numbers please not apocryphal gossip.
 




G

Gwylan

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
31,416
Uffern
Thunder Bolt said:
Step by stealthy step, like boiling a frog.

First of all, they label the state pension a benefit, then the freeze the tax threshold ...
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There's a big gap between these though. The state pension was defined as a benefit in the National Insurance Act of 1946, it's a bit late to be objecting to that
 


Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,865
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
Gwylan said:
There's a big gap between these though. The state pension was defined as a benefit in the National Insurance Act of 1946, it's a bit late to be objecting to that
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Oh, that's alright then.

There was also Pritti Patel referring to people as working and nonworking units.
 


C

cheshunt seagull

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
2,509
Thunder Bolt said:
Esther McVey is going full loopy today, by banning rainbow lanyards for civil servants and saying they will have to wear uniform lanyards (mine used to be BHAFC) and she doesn't want foreign students coming to British universities (their fees keep the unis open)
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Her speech had all the hallmarks of someone who had lost contact with reality. She also talked about civil servants being distracted by an obsession with diversity. Having worked in a public service diversity was about ensuring that the workforce reflected the society we served and that as wide a section of society as possible had the opportunity to contribute and develop. This gave us the best chance of employing the best people. It was also about services being accessible to all. This was not a ‘woke’ obsession or distraction but simply being committed and professional. Truth is that when I retired 2 years ago we still had some way to go. As for lanyards, I also wore a BHAFC one.
 




Audax

Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
2,999
Uckfield
As much as I really, really hate the current Tory government and the vast majority of their policies, I'd actually be in favour of a well-designed system for means testing recipients of any form of payments from the government.

IMO means testing is actually a policy that would benefit the left. Stop, or reduce, funding going to those who don't need it so that the funding available can go further in supporting those who do need it. It's not about equality ... it's about equity. And, I believe, ensuring those who are less well off (especially as they reach retirement age) are better supported will help ease pressure elsewhere: for example, poverty generally correlates with worse health and worse health correlates with increased pressure on the NHS.

The problem with means testing isn't the concept in itself. The problem is designing a system of means testing that works and has the fewest loopholes possible. I wouldn't trust the current Tory party to even get close to doing that.
 


keaton

keaton

Big heart, hot blood and balls. Big balls
Nov 18, 2004
9,715
Thunder Bolt said:
Would you be happy living on £9K a year? A very small private pension of £3500 takes you above the tax threshold so paying income tax.
That is below the minimum wage.

There are a few wealthy pensioners but they aren’t the norm and I can guarantee they aren’t women.
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Isn't that an argument for raising tax thresholds though?
 






Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,865
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
Audax said:
As much as I really, really hate the current Tory government and the vast majority of their policies, I'd actually be in favour of a well-designed system for means testing recipients of any form of payments from the government.

IMO means testing is actually a policy that would benefit the left. Stop, or reduce, funding going to those who don't need it so that the funding available can go further in supporting those who do need it. It's not about equality ... it's about equity. And, I believe, ensuring those who are less well off (especially as they reach retirement age) are better supported will help ease pressure elsewhere: for example, poverty generally correlates with worse health and worse health correlates with increased pressure on the NHS.

The problem with means testing isn't the concept in itself. The problem is designing a system of means testing that works and has the fewest loopholes possible. I wouldn't trust the current Tory party to even get close to doing that.
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Monitoring bank accounts, to see if pensions can be reduced, cutting back care facilities to practically zero so all care has to be paid for.

My friend was pressured to sell her three bedroomed house to pay for her husband's care home, when he had a stroke. She stated her daughter lived out of Sussex, with a disabled granddaughter, and would visit regularly at the weekend, to help, and also to visit her father. It put massive stress on her when she didn't want to sell and live in a one bedroomed flat. She tried for months to care for him herself, almost having a nervous breakdown.
We used to have well run council care homes for the elderly, but they have all gone.
I know this is just one example but I imagine it isn't a rare one.
 


Thunder Bolt

Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
Aug 18, 2009
65,865
Beside the seaside, beside the sea
cheshunt seagull said:
Her speech had all the hallmarks of someone who had lost contact with reality. She also talked about civil servants being distracted by an obsession with diversity. Having worked in a public service diversity was about ensuring that the workforce reflected the society we served and that as wide a section of society as possible had the opportunity to contribute and develop. This gave us the best chance of employing the best people. It was also about services being accessible to all. This was not a ‘woke’ obsession or distraction but simply being committed and professional. Truth is that when I retired 2 years ago we still had some way to go. As for lanyards, I also wore a BHAFC one.
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As did I, which prompted some good banter when I worked with colleagues supporting West Ham, Palace, Spurs etc etc.
 


The Clamp

The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,728
West is BEST
There is no way I’m retiring in this country, whoever is in power.

Unless you are very comfortably off, growing old is awful in the U.K.

Unless you are a working unit or the government can raid your bank account, you are useless to them and they’d rather you just hurry up and die.

There is zero dignity in being a pensioner in this nation. If you’re teet has run dry and the government piggies can no longer suckle, they make it abundantly clear; you are a waste of food and daily maintenance.
 




happypig

happypig

Staring at the rude boys
May 23, 2009
8,001
Eastbourne
The Clamp said:
There is no way I’m retiring in this country, whoever is in power.

Unless you are very comfortably off, growing old is awful in the U.K.

Unless you are a working unit or the government can raid your bank account, you are useless to them and they’d rather you just hurry up and die.

There is zero dignity in being a pensioner in this nation. If you’re teet has run dry and the government piggies can no longer suckle, they make it abundantly clear; you are a waste of food and daily maintenance.
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If you haven't got a shedload of money then, thanks to Brexit, forget it. In Greece you need something like a €250k property, €4k per month income and private healthcare.
I had planned to move to Spain when I retired in 2019 but with Covid and Brexit that's gone out of the window.
 


The Clamp

The Clamp

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jan 11, 2016
24,728
West is BEST
happypig said:
If you haven't got a shedload of money then, thanks to Brexit, forget it. In Greece you need something like a €250k property, €4k per month income and private healthcare.
I had planned to move to Spain when I retired in 2019 but with Covid and Brexit that's gone out of the window.
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Brexit doesn’t affect me in that sense as I am an Irish citizen and still have freedom of movement.

As for the financials, that’s going to be less of a problem abroad that it will ever be in the UK.
 


MJsGhost

MJsGhost

Oooh Matron, I'm an
NSC Patron
Jun 26, 2009
4,623
East
Thunder Bolt said:
Would you be happy living on £9K a year? A very small private pension of £3500 takes you above the tax threshold so paying income tax.
That is below the minimum wage.

There are a few wealthy pensioners but they aren’t the norm and I can guarantee they aren’t women.
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I'd struggle to raise my young family on £9k, yes.

My point is about means testing in general. Where they set the threshold(s) is another matter. Nobody should be left struggling after paying their dues, in good faith, their whole working lives. However, doling out the state pension to those who really don't need it seems a waste of money to me, so the concept of means testing appeals.

The majority of the UK's wealth is held by those over 55, so I assume a decent proportion of that is held by pensioners. It's probable that the vast majority of that wealth is held by the richest 5%, so the actual number of wealthy pensioners could indeed be small and therefore means-testing might not save much anyway...
 


Audax

Audax

Boing boing boing...
Aug 3, 2015
2,999
Uckfield
Thunder Bolt said:
Monitoring bank accounts, to see if pensions can be reduced, cutting back care facilities to practically zero so all care has to be paid for.
Click to expand...
Hence why I said any means testing system needs to be very well designed. Things I would *not* be in favour of includes both of those things you mention here. Actively monitoring bank accounts as part of the means testing is a step too far, IMO, especially given the government has already proven it can't be trusted to monitor this sort of stuff properly with the Carer's Allowance overpayments issues.

On your second point - I don't see what that has to do with means testing? Those cut backs were done in the name of "austerity" and urgently needs to be reversed. BUT one way of helping make those facilities affordable for everyone is to means test. Subsidise (on a sliding scale between 100% and 0%) based on means testing.

I would say here, however, that I'm in no way suggesting that building a robust means testing system is easy. It's not. Especially when you get into the realms of protecting inheritances (eg the family home - I'm not advocating that family homes should be sold off because means testing says you have assets that can fund care).

What we do need to be thinking about is how we build an equitable NHS, equitable social care, equitable elderly care systems, etc. The NHS is a beautiful thing. But what I would say is that I'm stunned it's lasted as long as it has when it is based on "free to all at point of access". It's expensive to do, and there is a proportion of society who don't actually need it; some of whom choose not to use it, but not all of them.

In many respects the NHS and National Insurance in the UK has delayed the UK when it comes to helping individuals to prepare for later life / help take the burden off government. For example, mandating employers offer pensions to a minimum level and that individuals must opt out (rather than in) is something that other countries were doing decades before the UK (I have a tiny pension or two floating around somewhere in Australia from my first jobs in the late 90's). Other countries also incentivise those who can afford to take private health insurance to do it.
 






beorhthelm

beorhthelm

A. Virgo, Football Genius
Jul 21, 2003
35,413
MJsGhost said:
The majority of the UK's wealth is held by those over 55, so I assume a decent proportion of that is held by pensioners. It's probable that the vast majority of that wealth is held by the richest 5%, so the actual number of wealthy pensioners could indeed be small and therefore means-testing might not save much anyway...
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believe it's over 50% of national wealth tied up in pensions, seperate from property assets. while there are many poor pensioner, there's also a lot of moderate to very well off pensioners too.
 


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