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[Politics] Worst PM since Thatcher

Worst Pm since Thatcher

  • Truss

    Votes: 185 51.7%

  • Johnson

    Votes: 85 23.7%

  • Major

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Blair

    Votes: 27 7.5%

  • Brown

    Votes: 22 6.1%

  • Cameron

    Votes: 26 7.3%

  • May

    Votes: 5 1.4%

  • Sunak

    Votes: 8 2.2%
  • Total voters
    358


drew

drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,072
Burgess Hill
Zeberdi said:
You are completely missing the point I was making.

@Commander said the accusations that Blair’s war on Iraq was ‘illegal’ is an oft repeated line from the ‘right wing press’ by people who have ‘no understanding of international law’

My only point was that it wasn’t/isn’t - prominent Labour MPs have said/say the same, including the current Labour Opposition Leader and Blair‘s own Deputy at the time along with prominent international lawyers and the UN itself.. Therefore, arguments that Blair’s war on Iraq was ‘illegal’ is not a ‘right wing‘ media trope but a view widely held across the board and in the international community too whether you agree with that view or not …it’s disingenuous and unnecessarily partisan to suggest otherwise.
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If it is as universal as you seem to suggest, why no action against him?

Also, I never claimed it was right wing trope but I was pointing out that the quotes you gave were all opinions as to whether it was in breach. If they were facts then surely something would have been done. However, what did the UN do? They, along with Russia, USA, EU actually made him a peace envoy!!! Don't recall them doing the same for Milosovic!!!
 






Baldseagull

Baldseagull

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2012
10,975
Crawley
Herr Tubthumper said:
My view is it got involved in the politics UK political parties did not want to bother....in a sense it outsourced looking after the cleanliness of water, food standards, medicine, employment rights etc and funded things no one else wanted to fund. I have spoken before about pulling out of the EMA.....to simply replicate the work of the EMA in the UK at a huge increased cost to the tax payer and to businesses who will simply pass the cost onto the UK. Utter nonsense which you will pay for. All previously outsourced with the added bonus of being as hands off, or as hands on, as you wanted. Going back to @Commander 's post it's stuff like this which the vast majority of people did not have a clue about and which will ultimately hit them with the extra cost and delays in approval. This is not necessary a delay in the UK MHRA licensing drugs...it's by companies not bothering to initially submit to the UK which is what is now happening.
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I was very happy with the areas in which the EU had powers, I just thought that those that weren't might have had Major top of the shit list.
 


G

goldstone

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2003
7,131
It's always clear how left leaning NSCers are. Thatcher was far from being a bad PM. In fact she was one of the better ones in recent years. Not perfect, but who is? The worst is Blair for the simple and obvious reason that he got us involved in the war in Iraq, the consequences of which are still causing problems all over the Arab world.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,706
The Fatherland
goldstone said:
It's always clear how left leaning NSCers are. Thatcher was far from being a bad PM. In fact she was one of the better ones in recent years. Not perfect, but who is? The worst is Blair for the simple and obvious reason that he got us involved in the war in Iraq, the consequences of which are still causing problems all over the Arab world.
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The numbers were such that the opposition could have easily stopped it. Both parties were complicit.
 




clapham_gull

clapham_gull

Legacy Fan
Aug 20, 2003
25,415
goldstone said:
It's always clear how left leaning NSCers are.
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goldstone said:
The worst is Blair for the simple and obvious reason that he got us involved in the war in Iraq
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Contradictory statements that belies your misunderstanding of the politics at the time. Blair was brought to power by many right of centre voters who were happy to give three election wins. He also decided to ally himself with a very right of centre President.

Britain would have gone to that war whichever party was in power.
 


WATFORD zero

WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
25,915
Herr Tubthumper said:
The numbers were such that the opposition could have easily stopped it. Both parties were complicit.
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There's no doubt that Blair made mistakes and campaigning for this was one, but it was Parliament that voted on the war as that is what happens in a parliamentary democracy. Just to be completely clear, once again

Labour 254 out of 410 voted for the invasion (61%)
Conservatives 146 out of 166 voted for the invasion (91%)
Lib Dems 0 out of 52 voted for the invasion (0%)
 


drew

drew

Drew
Oct 3, 2006
23,072
Burgess Hill
goldstone said:
It's always clear how left leaning NSCers are. Thatcher was far from being a bad PM. In fact she was one of the better ones in recent years. Not perfect, but who is? The worst is Blair for the simple and obvious reason that he got us involved in the war in Iraq, the consequences of which are still causing problems all over the Arab world.
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So before the Iraq war the middle east was a hotbed of peace and tranquility. I didn't realize but now I'm educated on that.
 




Herr Tubthumper

Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
59,706
The Fatherland
WATFORD zero said:
There's no doubt that Blair made mistakes and campaigning for this was one, but it was Parliament that voted on the war as that is what happens in a parliamentary democracy. Just to be completely clear, once again

Labour 254 out of 410 voted for the invasion (61%)
Conservatives 146 out of 166 voted for the invasion (91%)
Lib Dems 0 out of 52 voted for the invasion (0%)
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Agree about Blair. But you are correct it was Parliament which voted for the war and the Tories alone had the numbers to stop involvement. This pretty much always gets overlooked.
 


Hamilton

Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,506
Brighton
I don’t think that Truss even knows what Truss believes or is going to say. She is the most inept politician. If she gets re-elected then the people living in her constituency should be ashamed of themselves.
 


Hamilton

Hamilton

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 7, 2003
12,506
Brighton
goldstone said:
It's always clear how left leaning NSCers are. Thatcher was far from being a bad PM. In fact she was one of the better ones in recent years. Not perfect, but who is? The worst is Blair for the simple and obvious reason that he got us involved in the war in Iraq, the consequences of which are still causing problems all over the Arab world.
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The Iraq war was going to happen with or without Blair. It was the wrong decision in my view, but I understand the macro politics that led Blair into his decision to back Bush.

Sadly, the great work that Blair did is overshadowed by Iraq. Those Labour governments reinvested in schools, reduced waiting lists, introduced universal tax credits that got people back to work, introduced the minimum wage etc.

But it’s easy to bash him for everything.
 




lawros left foot

lawros left foot

Glory hunting since 1969
Jun 11, 2011
13,730
Worthing
goldstone said:
It's always clear how left leaning NSCers are. Thatcher was far from being a bad PM. In fact she was one of the better ones in recent years. Not perfect, but who is? The worst is Blair for the simple and obvious reason that he got us involved in the war in Iraq, the consequences of which are still causing problems all over the Arab world.
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If your only criteria for good/bad PM is taking into an, at the time, a popular Middle Eastern war, then you must surely agree that Corbyn, as one of the only MPs to vote against the war, would have made a cracking PM.


I detested Thatcher, and the revisionism of her legacy by the present Labour Party is sickening, but, even I will admit she got the occasional thing right.
She wasn’t, on the whole a good PM though.
 




Zeberdi

Zeberdi

Brighton born & bred
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
4,894
WATFORD zero said:
There's no doubt that Blair made mistakes and campaigning for this was one, but it was Parliament that voted on the war as that is what happens in a parliamentary democracy. Just to be completely clear, once again

Labour 254 out of 410 voted for the invasion (61%)
Conservatives 146 out of 166 voted for the invasion (91%)
Lib Dems 0 out of 52 voted for the invasion (0%)
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My earlier comments have been twisted into a bit of a straw argument I think. @Commander was implying that it was just the ‘right wing press’ that were claiming the decision to go to war in 2003 was unlawful. It wasn’t. Many prominent left wing lawyers (especially outside the US/US ) were saying the same thing. It was also widely recognised/claimed that Parliament was misled (as the Chilcot Inquiry subsequently concluded) - something people seem to have forgotten.

However, that doesn’t qualify Blair as the worst PM since Thatcher although I have always thought Iraq was probably Blair’s Waterloo.

I worked for the Labour Party at the time and very much supported Blair’s leadership and was pro-New Labour - as I said above, he was a good leader and rooted out the grassroots socialists who, with their reverence of all things Clause IV and adherence to Keynsian economics, never would have got a post-Thatcherite Labour government elected - the Country had changed fundamentally under Thatcher and Old Labour were anachronistic and out of tune with the public and the provision of public services had undergone something of a metamorphosis - In 1997 Blair with his ‘social contract’ and ‘stakeholder capitalism’ gave us a landslide victory and that is all we wanted after 18 years of Tory government.
 










faoileán

faoileán

Well-known member
Jan 29, 2021
886
Has to be Cameron in my book for the long term damage he has caused to Britain by giving the swivel-eyed lunatics in the Tory party the EU referendum just to keep them quiet. Agreed that Truss was moronic and caused massive medium term harm, and Johnson just a self-serving fool, but Cameron takes the biscuit.
 




Sid and the Sharknados

Sid and the Sharknados

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 4, 2022
4,139
Darlington
faoileán said:
Has to be Cameron in my book for the long term damage he has caused to Britain by giving the swivel-eyed lunatics in the Tory party the EU referendum just to keep them quiet. Agreed that Truss was moronic and caused massive medium term harm, and Johnson just a self-serving fool, but Cameron takes the biscuit.
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It's alarming that Blair and Cameron have near enough the same number of votes.
That's what going to Eton will do I guess. Makes even the most crass bullshit seem that bit more acceptable.
 


Iggle Piggle

Iggle Piggle

Well-known member
Sep 3, 2010
5,371
Sid and the Sharknados said:
It's alarming that Blair and Cameron have near enough the same number of votes.
That's what going to Eton will do I guess. Makes even the most crass bullshit seem that bit more acceptable.
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Blair currently has one more vote than Cameron which is mad. Cameron is the architect of the shitshow we are currently living through. In hindsight I should have voted for him over Truss.

I'm well aware Blair's government wasn't perfect. Tuition fees. PFI to name a couple (the Iraq war is a red herring only the likes of Robin Cook who opposed it at the time can take the moral high ground on that one) If we were to spin the question round his government is the best out of that lot by a mile. Also, if you asked me who I'd have liked during COVID as PM it's him all day long.
 


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