[Politics] Sunak's benefits shake up

The Fits · Apr 19, 2024

The Clamp said:
Perhaps the doctor recognised acute stress that you were in denial of?

Hence why they should be in charge and not some government lackey, employed to keep costs down.

Because they know about medical things.

In my twenties I had a very stressful job. I was aware of something building up. But young and male and probably unaware and in denial, self medicating etc the usual.
I woke up one morning and walked to work, but I could barely move. Mentally and physically I'd hit a wall. Coincidentally my GP was on the way. I walked in, was immediately seen and diagnosed with acute stress.
I had no idea how bad it had got.
I was signed off for 6 weeks, during which time I quit my job. A few months later I moved. Without that diagnosis and without the respite from that job I have no idea what mess I might have got myself into.
Some people might 'play the system' but an effective and functioning support system, from the GPs to benefits, is absolutely vital when people need it (even when they didn't even know it).

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 19, 2024

dwayne said:
It does feel like this country and especially the youth (yes I know they have it hard) are pretty work shy these days. Hard to recruit in retail for instance since Brexit.

Make jobs attractive then. My understanding of the free market is that if you can’t find staff increase the hourly rate until they start applying.

Peteinblack · Apr 19, 2024

Such a typical Tory response in so many ways:

a) Another initiative to demonise the unemployed.
b) Another way of denigrating a group of public sector professionals and experts.
c) Ignore the underlying causes of an alleged problem - why do so many people in Britain today suffer from stress and mental health problems? - and instead act tough by
cracking-down on the symptom.
d) Continue ignoring the £ billions lost from tax evasion.
e) Continue ignoring the fact that much of the increasing 'benefits bill' is due to top-up benefits paid to low-paid workers whose employers pay poverty wages, and £ 18
billion of Housing Benefit is paid to private landlords charging exorbitant rents.
f) We're sinking in the opinion polls, so need to throw some more red meat - or another dead cat on the table - to appease our bigoted shrinking electoral base who are
switching to Reform UK, because they think we are not nasty, racist, or vindictive enough.

The Clamp · Apr 19, 2024

Colonel Mustard said:
I played the system, definitely, though I bristle a bit at 'lying and defrauding'. I spoke to my GP truthfully about how pissed off I was at work, hoping he’d sign me off for a while which he did. I couldn’t have complained if instead, he'd advised me to take more exercise and look for another job which was the real solution I arrived at myself within a few months.

I don’t have an opinion on the other stuff, and that’s not what I wanted to comment on. I don’t know what the proposals are and am not interested enough to research them. I also don’t like childish nicknames for politicians. You can be quite abusive, but get defensive when you’re challenged.

Would you have reached the conclusion to take exercise and change jobs without a bit of breathing space from your job?

And it seems the course of action he prescribed for you, worked an absolute treat; Giving you time and space to figure out what changes you need to make.

Colonel Mustard · Apr 19, 2024

The Clamp said:
Perhaps the doctor recognised acute stress that you were in denial of?

Hence why they should be in charge and not some government lackey, employed to keep costs down.

Because doctors know about medical things.

Ha ha! Hadn’t thought of it like that. I just thought I had a shit job and a shit boss.

Thunder Bolt · Apr 19, 2024

This lady was a carer for her disabled daughter. Carers are allowed to work providing they keep below a certain threshold. Read her story and say if you think she committed fraud.

DWP ordered carer to repay £11,000 after earning 50p over working threshold

Karina Moon, 62, was told by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) that she must pay back £11,292.75 of her Carer's Allowance or she would be prosecuted for fraud

www.mirror.co.uk

dwayne · Apr 19, 2024

Herr Tubthumper said:
Would we good to also see the stats without universal credit as well. You can’t point your finger at those who actually work but have such low income it needs topping up.

But that's irrelevant to the overall point that 40% of people excluding pensioners take more than they pay in tax !

Whether it's right or wrong I will leave up to your own opinion. But fair to say that the country is in pretty dire financial straits post Brexit and COVID and I don't see a way out.

CheeseRolls · Apr 19, 2024

beorhthelm said:
usually changes to benefits sound sensible, then some say how terrible the changes are, manipulate how its presented and everyone turns against it. repeated governements fail to do much radical, worry about imagined stigma associated, rather than worry about dealing with outcomes.

Universal credit was implemented, as was limiting child benefit to two children.

Child benefit is an interesting one. Implemented by the tories who don't believe in the nanny state telling people what they can or can't do and likely to be reversed by labour, who wish to eradicate child poverty ignoring the huge impact of large families.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 19, 2024

Westdene Seagull said:
THIS ^^^^. I'm currently trying to claim JSA having being made redundant recently. I keep trying to book appointment at my 'local' Job Centre. I keep being told by the central DWP line that someone from the 'local' Job Centre will phone me back within three working hours. I'm currently on my FOURTH attempt. They have until midday today. Will the fvckers phone me ? Of course not. Then I need to sit in a phone queue for over an hour to the central line only to be told they've now "escalated" it. There really is a reason why DWP stands for Dicks, W@nkers and Pr1cks. Sunak has about as much knowledge of sorting benefits as I have of putting an elephant on the moon !

Sorry to hear that.

'The system' should try to help people find work, rather than make them feel like they have done something wrong, under the tacit assumption that anyone seeking benefits while seeking work is a scrounger.

When I was younger, I spent 3 years on the open job market when I was between degrees. Occasionally I was out of work. My recollection was of uniformly being treated as if I were scum whenever I had to interact with the system.

While I'm at it, some of the attitudes on this thread are saddening. I have been called arrogant because I have sneered at some of the 'mental health card' comments (my being rude to the well-know troll is something else and neither here nor there - he doesn't care!). But the arrogance of people who think they can judge the health (whether physical or mental) of people they have never met is as breathtaking as it is, sadly, not surprising. Lack of insight, lack of empathy.....very sad. Like my sister-in-law.

However, I'm someone who doesn't always just slink away in the face of lazy prejudice. Sometimes I do, but not always. It saddens me also I'm having to argue the toss with one or two people on where with whom I normally get on. Oh well, never mind :shrug:

Cornwallboy · Apr 19, 2024

Colonel Mustard said:
Please stop calling people trolls just because they have a different world view. You constantly post inflammatory opinions which seem to have no purpose but to antagonise some people. And when they respond? They’re trolls, of course.

Physician, heal thyself!

Nail on head. Very well said. There are too many on here such who resort to insults if people disagree with them.

WATFORD zero · Apr 19, 2024

Thunder Bolt said:
The Citizens Advice Bureau on benefit fraud v tax fraud. Allowing for mistakes from the DWP in overpayments.

Myth-busting: the real figures on benefit fraud

Benefit fraud is a problem, however it seems to get more attention than other fraud within our economy. Here are the facts about benefit fraud and their position within the UK’s finances.

www.cas.org.uk

There's an interesting statistic in there for @dwayne who I know loves statistics :wink:

The UK government estimates that total fraud across the whole of the economy amounts to £73 billion a year. UK government figures for 2012 estimate benefits overpaid due to fraud is £1.2 billion and tax credit fraud is £380 million. So just under £1.6 billion in total; less than 1% of the overall benefits and tax credits expenditure and less than benefits underpaid and overpaid due to error.

So it appears that actually doing the job properly would save more than that fraudulently claimed :lolol:

I wonder why in the face of growing economic disaster, the Government think it's such a priority

Colonel Mustard · Apr 19, 2024

Harry Wilson's tackle said:
Indeed.

But I think you realise he meant tax fraud, not legal avoidance. I though I was pedantic

No. Nothing to do with pedantry. There’s a genuine distinction between avoidance and evasion, and often used by commentators, politicians etc. Many people, especially on the left, have the quite legitimate view that tax avoidance schemes have gone too far and mainly benefit the already wealthy eg only relatively well-off households can afford to save £20K a year so it’s therefore skewed towards the rich(er). It wasn’t at all clear from his message that he was referring only to illegal evasion. And it’s still not clear.

dwayne · Apr 19, 2024

CheeseRolls said:
This is a huge opportunity for radical change. As usual you can't make an omelette without breaking an egg and there will always be winners and losers. You do realise that you can be both in full time employment and receiving benefits?

Here's one way this could be addressed.
1 Significantly raise the minimum wage, reducing the benefits claimed.
2 As this will push the costs onto businesses significantly reduce business rates on properties (helping the High Street)
3 This will hit local government finances hard, which are already under severe stress, so increase central government funding, based on savings in the welfare budget.
4 If a government has a big enough majority it could also tackle the huge inequity in Council Tax raising. The current banding system is massively outdated. A rebanding exercise would largely place the burden on those best able to pay more. (Note I would expect to do very badly personally out of this one).

I think the only way to fix the countries financial ills is to target the elites and the big companies that are paying f all taxes. I don't see labour touching this and I'm sure the middle class will get hammered more once they get in.

4) is a scary prospect for me as I'm about to move to Wandsworth which has one of the cheapest council taxes in the country and is probably one of the richest areas in the country !

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 19, 2024

Colonel Mustard said:
I played the system, definitely, though I bristle a bit at 'lying and defrauding'. I spoke to my GP truthfully about how pissed off I was at work, hoping he’d sign me off for a while which he did. I couldn’t have complained if instead, he'd advised me to take more exercise and look for another job which was the real solution I arrived at myself within a few months.

I don’t have an opinion on the other stuff, and that’s not what I wanted to comment on. I don’t know what the proposals are and am not interested enough to research them. I also don’t like childish nicknames for politicians. You can be quite abusive, but get defensive when you’re challenged.

You know what? I think maybe you are being hard on yourself. Maybe you needed that time off because, unbeknownst to you, your mental health wasn't at its best. I get the impression you are quite stoic, so it may not come naturally to you to consider there may be a real problem.

So you may be right to 'bristle' at the 'lying and defrauding' allusion.

(I was hoping you would bristle because I think I'm right about what I have just written above).

As for defensive, yes I am. It's part of my autistic wiring. I have a choice, to wilt or fight. I often fight when it makes better sense to back off. It's a learning curve for me and always will be.

No offence of any substance meant. I enjoy your NSC contributions :thumbsup:

Randy McNob · Apr 19, 2024

ROSM said:
Any chance of naming the source of this? Surely you remember this from when you did your degree?

If it's based anywhere near 55 Tufton street then you lose 5 marks for a poor quality source reference

The most disturbing part of that notion is the fact of people exercising their rights / claiming monies to which they entitled, in a democratic society being overuled by a billionaire policital leader who wasn't elected by a single one of those of those people. This is the thing we should all be united against and oppose as a society

Justice · Apr 19, 2024

Sunak is a disgusting human.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 19, 2024

Colonel Mustard said:
No. Nothing to do with pedantry. There’s a genuine distinction between avoidance and evasion, and often used by commentators, politicians etc. Many people, especially on the left, have the quite legitimate view that tax avoidance schemes have gone too far and mainly benefit the already wealthy eg only relatively well-off households can afford to save £20K a year so it’s therefore skewed towards the rich(er). It wasn’t at all clear from his message that he was referring only to illegal evasion. And it’s still not clear.

I didn't mean 'pedantry' as a rebuke. It was a light-hearted quip. It is common for people to mix up avoidance and evasion, and so it is unusual to see this picked up like you picked up on it. Do I have to explain everything? :lolol:

Herr Tubthumper · Apr 19, 2024

dwayne said:
But that's irrelevant to the overall point that 40% of people excluding pensioners take more than they pay in tax !

Whether it's right or wrong I will leave up to your own opinion. But fair to say that the country is in pretty dire financial straits post Brexit and COVID and I don't see a way out.

It’s not irrelevant, it’s most likely a major contributory factor to the figure. I agree it’s dire. As I say, companies should not (indirectly) receive benefits to prop them up. I’d abolish universal credit and let private businesses pay rates which attract the appropriate staff. If they can’t do this then they are unviable and should not be operating.

Colonel Mustard · Apr 19, 2024

The Clamp said:
Would you have reached the conclusion to take exercise and change jobs without a bit of breathing space from your job?

And it seems the course of action he prescribed for you, worked an absolute treat; Giving you time and space to figure out what changes you need to make.

Fair point. I appreciate your perspective and ok, it’s possible that he was indeed doing his job in an unexpected way. I honestly don’t believe he was thinking in those terms BUT you’re right — the 5 or 6 weeks I had off did indeed allow me to think about my future and I changed jobs within a few months.

Harry Wilson's tackle · Apr 19, 2024

Cornwallboy said:
Nail on head. Very well said. There are too many on here such who resort to insults if people disagree with them.

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