[Politics] Russia invades Ukraine (24/02/2022)

raymondo said:

I don't know how to word this but... somehow it bothers me that US jets, UK jets and ship mounted US air defense systems are immediately used to help take down Iranian missiles and drones fired at Israel...but the same does not happen for Ukraine .

I'm not saying the US and UK should not have intervened to help Israel (that invited the attack by shelling Iranian leaders in Damascus a few days back)... but just my head and emotions spinning on what this reveals about Ukraine's place in the pecking order.
I'm happy to be corrected or helped out by different views .

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raymondo said:

I don't know how to word this but... somehow it bothers me that US jets, UK jets and ship mounted US air defense systems are immediately used to help take down Iranian missiles and drones fired at Israel...but the same does not happen for Ukraine .

I'm not saying the US and UK should not have intervened to help Israel (that invited the attack by shelling Iranian leaders in Damascus a few days back)... but just my head and emotions spinning on what this reveals about Ukraine's place in the pecking order.
I'm happy to be corrected or helped out by different views .

Click to expand...

beorhthelm said:

US has provided missle defense systems to Ukraine. they dont have any missile destroyers in the Black Sea, due to long standing maritime agreements. their range is limited anyway, which helps narrow strip of Israel but not much use 100miles in land in Ukraine. NATO aircraft flying missions over Ukraine would be a major escalation and what Russia claims we wanted all along.

what this show is how we regard many middle eastern nations, that we regularly run military missions over them, they have no air defense and little say in the matter.

Click to expand...

raymondo said:

I don't know how to word this but... somehow it bothers me that US jets, UK jets and ship mounted US air defense systems are immediately used to help take down Iranian missiles and drones fired at Israel...but the same does not happen for Ukraine .

I'm not saying the US and UK should not have intervened to help Israel (that invited the attack by shelling Iranian leaders in Damascus a few days back)... but just my head and emotions spinning on what this reveals about Ukraine's place in the pecking order.
I'm happy to be corrected or helped out by different views .

Click to expand...

hampshirebrightonboy said:

In the absence of direct involvement, at least give Ukraine enough Patriot systems so they can defend themselves.

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The Clamp said:

I fear Ukraine only has a few terrible months left before defeat.

Unless the west steps up massively, Ukraine will fall.

Our boots on the ground. Our pilots in the air. Only this will stop Russia.

Click to expand...

The Clamp said:

I fear Ukraine only has a few terrible months left before defeat.

Unless the west steps up massively, Ukraine will fall.

Our boots on the ground. Our pilots in the air. Only this will stop Russia.

Click to expand...

raymondo said:

An alternative to boots on the ground could still be:
- full air defense systems
- maximum supply of shells, missiles, drones...NOW, NOW
- the US to start being allies again

But, like you, I'm very fearful that the west doesn't have the stomach/ process even for fast supplies, let alone boots on the ground.
Governments/societies too comfortable and busy worrying about their inflation rates (4.9 or 5.1... oh shock horror), the next elections... rather than the effing elephant in the room

Click to expand...

raymondo said:

I don't know how to word this but... somehow it bothers me that US jets, UK jets and ship mounted US air defense systems are immediately used to help take down Iranian missiles and drones fired at Israel...but the same does not happen for Ukraine .

I'm not saying the US and UK should not have intervened to help Israel (that invited the attack by shelling Iranian leaders in Damascus a few days back)... but just my head and emotions spinning on what this reveals about Ukraine's place in the pecking order.
I'm happy to be corrected or helped out by different views .

Click to expand...

JamesAndTheGiantHead said:

It’s surely a NATO issue, where if we actively took part in combat we’d potentially be triggering article 5 and would effectively be at war with Russia.

Might have been a different response if Israel were part of NATO.

I also get the impression that we’re not as worried about the military capabilities of Iran.

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raymondo said:

Sure, yep .
But then, as has been said above, give Ukraine the supplies they need so they have a chance to win.
Also, Iran is not far away from being nuclear capable (from what I've read recently); and I believe Israel are playing the US, inviting an attack, diversion from Gaza concerns, the US 100% onside.
Ukraine never invited an attack.

Sorry, don't want to derail this thread but it's intertwined completely at the moment.

I need to paint my fence and calm down.

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beorhthelm said:

US has provided missle defense systems to Ukraine. they dont have any missile destroyers in the Black Sea, due to long standing maritime agreements. their range is limited anyway, which helps narrow strip of Israel but not much use 100miles in land in Ukraine. NATO aircraft flying missions over Ukraine would be a major escalation and what Russia claims we wanted all along.

what this show is how we regard many middle eastern nations, that we regularly run military missions over them, they have no air defense and little say in the matter.

Click to expand...

peterward said:

Well that's true but also not really.

They've given NASAMs.

But of many 100's of F16 they've delivered 0

Of the 160 patriot batteries theyve given 0, they have supplied some missiles for donated batteries, which has just increased to 3, that's 3 of 12 or 25% of what they have..... compared to USA 0% of 160.

Ukraine has pleaded for deep strike ATACMs to track and hit back the missile sites that fire at them and they've got 0 ("could be deemed an escalation")

The US appeasement, escalation management slow drip just enough has failed. Russia isn't contained by our escalation management and simply sees it as lack of resistance to its evil so pushes harder against the open door.

Jake Sullivan needs firing, a white collar intellectual escalation manager is useless against a lawless gangster mafia state.

Mainly in context of Iran strikes, but equally relevant to Russia.... Excellent points made today here by Andrew Michta.... we need a return to real hard power deterrence.

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A1X said:

Here we go again

View attachment 180475

NATO is not going to be getting directly involved in Ukraine. It never was and it never will. It will support it (or at least should), but those hoping for / demanding scenarios where NATO troops are shooting at Russians or NATO jets are taking out Russian drones / missiles are going to be disappointed.

And anyone who doesn’t understand why the scenarios differ might like to consider why fighting Iran and fighting Russia would be entirely different propositions.

Click to expand...

peterward said:

Well that's true but also not really.

They've given NASAMs.

But of many 100's of F16 they've delivered 0

Of the 160 patriot batteries theyve given 0, they have supplied some missiles for donated batteries, which has just increased to 3, that's 3 of 12 or 25% of what they have..... compared to USA 0% of 160.

Ukraine has pleaded for deep strike ATACMs to track and hit back the missile sites that fire at them and they've got 0 ("could be deemed an escalation")

The US appeasement, escalation management slow drip just enough has failed. Russia isn't contained by our escalation management and simply sees it as lack of resistance to its evil so pushes harder against the open door.

Jake Sullivan needs firing, a white collar intellectual escalation manager is useless against a lawless gangster mafia state.

Mainly in context of Iran strikes, but equally relevant to Russia.... Excellent points made today here by Andrew Michta.... we need a return to real hard power deterrence.

Click to expand...

A1X said:

Here we go again

View attachment 180475

NATO is not going to be getting directly involved in Ukraine. It never was and it never will. It will support it (or at least should), but those hoping for / demanding scenarios where NATO troops are shooting at Russians or NATO jets are taking out Russian drones / missiles are going to be disappointed.

And anyone who doesn’t understand why the scenarios differ might like to consider why fighting Iran and fighting Russia would be entirely different propositions. It also suggests a misunderstanding of what NATO is, and they view it in the same way Putin does rather than the way NATO members do.

Click to expand...

The Clamp said:

I fear Ukraine only has a few terrible months left before defeat.

Unless the west steps up massively, Ukraine will fall.

Our boots on the ground. Our pilots in the air. Only this will stop Russia.

Click to expand...