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[Politics] Owen Jones



chip

chip

Active member
Jul 7, 2003
954
Glorious Goodwood
I don't know who this person is, but, judging by the reactions here, he does seem to have some place and purpose and it's generated a discussion. Perhaps we have too few parties that can never represent the full spectra of opinions where we have no idea of the underlying values. I'd like to hear a politician/party campaign on a platform of no child being hungry (especially) at school or no pensioner dieing of cold because they cannot afford to heat their home. The focus on the economy is mindless if it doesn't relate to people and you cannot have growth forever, we need to learn to live well on less. Not sure that I find the left-right divide relevant anymore, this time it's a choice between crap and largely unknown and uninterested. There aren't any certain answers to this country's problems but it would be nice to have some scintilla of the planned approach. E.g. reform of the NHS has been ongoing since its foundation but do we ever have a public conversation about priorities, more targets are not going to help. Was it Jack Straw who was asked to think the unthinkable and then sacked when he told people what he had been thinking?
 




Weststander

Weststander

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Aug 25, 2011
64,087
Withdean area
Nobby Cybergoat said:
I just read the article and I disagree with most of it.

I think Owen has his heart in the right place. But he's working on the assumption that a labour majority is a foregone conclusion and that Starmer has a fair media landscape to work with.

Starmer is right to continue to jump through the hoops he needs to jump through. It doesn't excite me much either, but i'll take uninspiring over horrific every single day of the week
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I already thought the same of Steve Coogan. Ages before any GE already trying to whip up the pressure on Starmer to deliver Labour policies on Coogan’s particular tick list. Comes across as far more than lobbying, instead stirring on social media. The nation voted against those in 2019, if and when Labour get it it’ll be a mandate for the Starmer/Reeves/Streeting manifesto. Not sneaky Coogan’s by the back door.
 


jackalbion

jackalbion

Well-known member
Aug 30, 2011
4,044
I quite like Jones to be honest, a good writer and as multiple people have said 'chavs' is a really good book. Its good to have someone who doesn't have extremist views but still keeps to his principles. I have similar concerns that I don't think Starmer will actually change anything, but I will still vote for him, I feel Starmer is doing too much to appease people that will never vote for him, and dropping some very useful policies on the fear that some talking head will call him woke. Country is a mess and I think removing this set of Tories will do a lot to unify people and set people straight, but I hope Starmer actually commits to change in this country rather than just further appeasing the ruling class.
 


Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
7,026
chip said:
I don't know who this person is, but, judging by the reactions here, he does seem to have some place and purpose and it's generated a discussion. Perhaps we have too few parties that can never represent the full spectra of opinions where we have no idea of the underlying values. I'd like to hear a politician/party campaign on a platform of no child being hungry (especially) at school or no pensioner dieing of cold because they cannot afford to heat their home. The focus on the economy is mindless if it doesn't relate to people and you cannot have growth forever, we need to learn to live well on less. Not sure that I find the left-right divide relevant anymore, this time it's a choice between crap and largely unknown and uninterested. There aren't any certain answers to this country's problems but it would be nice to have some scintilla of the planned approach. E.g. reform of the NHS has been ongoing since its foundation but do we ever have a public conversation about priorities, more targets are not going to help. Was it Jack Straw who was asked to think the unthinkable and then sacked when he told people what he had been thinking?
Click to expand...
If you're making the point that it's positive that there are credible, high profile voices in the media which don't represent the policy positions of either main parties, then I agree with you
 


chip

chip

Active member
Jul 7, 2003
954
Glorious Goodwood
Nobby Cybergoat said:
If you're making the point that it's positive that there are credible, high profile voices in the media which don't represent the policy positions of either main parties, then I agree with you
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Yes, that is partly what I'm saying. But also that we don't have an honest discussion about what we want to achieve and the means to attempting to do so. It's always seems to be a numbers game, x more houses, y more nurses, z more police but no consideration of how that will achieve a poorly defined objective. It would be nice to have more of an idea of the vision of these political types.
 




Colonel Mustard

Colonel Mustard

Well-known member
Jun 18, 2023
2,043
Greg Bobkin said:
Fine if he wants to explain why he's left, but I'm be more interested to hear him explain why he thought people would WANT to know why he left? To the point where a column wasn't enough, he's seemingly done a big video about it?

Genuinely, what difference does it make to anyone? I know who he is – and I've heard him speak about a few things in the past, but I honestly couldn't contain my indifference about what he does with his life. What does he expect people to do with the information he's providing?
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He’s a journalist writing an opinion piece, as he’s presumably contracted to do, for the Guardian. It’s how he earns his living.
 


G

Greg Bobkin

Silver Seagull
May 22, 2012
14,860
Colonel Mustard said:
He’s a journalist writing an opinion piece, as he’s presumably contracted to do, for the Guardian. It’s how he earns his living.
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I get all that, but I just still find it self-indulgent that he feels the need to make SO much out of it (the video and other appearances, in addition to the piece in the paper). The journalist (not to be confused with their opinions) should never be the story - especially if they are writing about themselves.
 


Nobby Cybergoat

Nobby Cybergoat

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
7,026
The way I would try to explain my thoughts to Owen Jones would be this.

There's an election coming up where the country will be faced with

Menu option 1 - Conservative Government. Initially under Sunak, but likely soon under Truss, Badenoch or Braverman. A government which is likely to continue with it's recent well documented record of acute incompetence and barely disguised racism. Swathes of it's MP's are accused or have been found guilty of being on the take or sexual impropriety .....

..... or ......

Menu option 2 - A Labour government under Starmer. Likely to be quite economically cautious and not break hugely from the Tory model. But they will surely end the days of performative cruelty to the vulnerable and governing to exploit cultural differences in the population for electoral advantage. They would likely make sensible accords with a allies and neighbours and the sense of stability is likely to encourage business investment

So that's it. A cold hard choice. A 1/10 government or a 5/10 government.

I actually would vote for Menu option 3 - Radical progressive change. Rejoin EU, tax heavily and spend, allow migrants in and have a full throated support for Gaza. That would get my vote. But I have to acknowledge that progressive socialist policies don't win elections in the UK. That menu option does not exist. For that reason i'm going to temper my criticism of Starmer for the risk of being lumbered with the racist incompetents for another 5 years. I'd counsel Owen Jones to do the same.
 






aolstudios

aolstudios

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
4,530
brighton
Jim in the West said:
People like Owen Jones would seemingly prefer Labour never to be elected. They don't seem to understand that the majority of Brits are broadly Centrist - some a little to the left, some a little to the right. Most of us want a fairer society than we have currently, but are still very much in favour of incentivising enterprise, etc, etc.

Blair got it, and Starmer seems to get it. Owen Jones and his ilk would rather seethe and moan from the far left, undermining the valiant efforts of centre-left politicians, and leaving the door open for loonies like Farage and Rees-Mogg.
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Spot on. The self indulgent 'politics' of permanently sneering from the sidelines. Utterly uninterested in actual responsibility or the people they claim to be speaking for. Who they'd run a mile from in real life
 


aolstudios

aolstudios

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
4,530
brighton
levs said:
Can't help but think people should wait and see when the manifestos say before nailing their colours to any particular mast. I'm hopeful that there will be enough in the labour manifesto for me and other left leaning people to get behind and vote for. I understand some of Owen's points about dishonesty/changing of stance but that can be a sign of strength as well as weakness. Blindly following certain policies despite negative public and media reaction would be naïve and similar to how Liz Truss handled things
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Facts & policies mean less than nothing to OJ. He's just a grifting agitator
 






K

Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
57,914
hassocks
Uh_huh_him said:
He is already widely despised.
That will increase once he takes the top job.

He doesn't have the charisma to win people over, he needs to make obvious gains quickly.
The Tories lurch to Populism can run and run, completely unchecked, in opposition.

If he doesn't have a comprehensive plan for the first year, he'll be absolutely f***ed.
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He isn't despised.

People are just "meh" on him
 


aolstudios

aolstudios

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
4,530
brighton
HalfaSeatOn said:
The priority for anyone left of the right is to get the right out.
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I'm on the left. I physically fought BNP & NF on the streets as a teenager, I know what the far right are. I won't gloss over or ignore the obsessive racism I've regularly encountered on 'my' side over close to a decade. However convenient It might be to do so. It sickens me & social media has increased it a nauseating amount
 






aolstudios

aolstudios

Well-known member
Nov 30, 2011
4,530
brighton
Greg Bobkin said:
I get all that, but I just still find it self-indulgent that he feels the need to make SO much out of it (the video and other appearances, in addition to the piece in the paper). The journalist (not to be confused with their opinions) should never be the story - especially if they are writing about themselves.
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OJ is *always* the story
 


Jackthelad

Jackthelad

Well-known member
Mar 31, 2010
828
I can't stand the guy! He's forever the victim, but he's right about current Labour being tory lite.
 


Uh_huh_him

Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
10,696
Harry Wilson's tackle said:
(Edit: apologies I think you were referring to Owen Jones? Or are you? Owen Joes is a complete arse. Sounds like my brother who refuses to vote labour because they are not left wing enough for him and would rather have a tory government because at least they aren't pretending to be socialists.)

Are you talking about Starmer?

Crikey.

By the silly-arse wing of the labour party, and by the vile wing of the tories, certainly.

But by who else? :shrug:
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No I was talking about Starmer.

The vile wing of the Tories, increasingly accounts for quite a large proportion of the country.
I assume you would include the Yaxley-lennon supporters and the various flavours of UKIP in e with that bunch too.

He is despised by the Left and Right equally, but that's a much bigger slice of the pie than it was 20 years ago.

His most ardent supporters just see him as a "grown-up" and think that will be good enough.
I don't think it will be.

Blair and Brown got into power with a vision and overcame the odds on the crest of a wave of change.
Starmer will get into power by default.

He will need to build some momentum to hold onto power and at the moment he just seems content to not f*** it up.
 




Uh_huh_him

Uh_huh_him

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2011
10,696
jackalbion said:
I quite like Jones to be honest, a good writer and as multiple people have said 'chavs' is a really good book. Its good to have someone who doesn't have extremist views but still keeps to his principles. I have similar concerns that I don't think Starmer will actually change anything, but I will still vote for him, I feel Starmer is doing too much to appease people that will never vote for him, and dropping some very useful policies on the fear that some talking head will call him woke. Country is a mess and I think removing this set of Tories will do a lot to unify people and set people straight, but I hope Starmer actually commits to change in this country rather than just further appeasing the ruling class.
Click to expand...
This!!

I'm from the I'm alright Jack generation, that Starmer thinks he needs to appeal to.
He doesn't.
Any half competent opposition politician should walk this election.

We've had nearly 50 years of drip down economics, and what do you know! It drips up not down.
At some point that issue needs to be addressed.
 


The Fits

The Fits

Well-known member
Jun 29, 2020
9,605
Jones is quite well respected amongst a certain demographic. And that demographic, though young, are politically engaged and voters. As ludicrous as it sounds he does have a certain gravitas amongst them. A consistent voice who talks about things they're concerned about.
So, I do think there's a group of people who will respond to this, to the project. However, I do find it a little confusing.
His message doesn't seem to be 'go out and find out who your local independents are. Find out if your Green candidate has a chance. Support them- financially, canvas for them, spread the word'.
Rather, give me a pot of money and I will find and fund these candidates.
That doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me. Almost feels a bit White Knighty.
 


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