[Football] Liverpool and Manchester United lead ‘European League’ breakout league idea

[McTavish]

I think some sort of ESL is inevitable. It is now as easy to get to Rome or Madrid from London as it is to get to Newcastle; and usually cheaper (or at least it was pre-Covid). The pressure from the top teams to get a bigger slice of the money that they overwhelmingly generate is similar to the pressure that resulted in the Premier League.

A lot of fans would welcome a return to a more competitive league in England (and probably other countries as well). Most people will agree that the football was more exciting in the Championship even if the quality wasn't of the same level.

A league of 20 teams with two each from England, Germany, Spain and Italy; one from France, Holland, Belgium and Portugal with the other 8 decided on some sort of qualifying tournament for the first year (which could include more teams from the previous 8 countries). The key difference between this and the current ESL proposal being that there would be relegation and promotion - details to be worked out - so there would still be the (vanishingly small) possibility of any club getting to the top.

This is obviously not what "the Big Six" want as there won't be six of them and they can still get relegated but it would be a compromise that gives the very top clubs the money that they are looking for whilst still retaining some competitive integrity.

Yes, money will drain out of the Premier League; it won't cure overspending and stupid salaries (just look at the Championship) but this is not going to go away so better to do it in an orderly fashion that works in some way for everyone.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Just to make it clear to nearly everyone on this board, we are termed ‘legacy fans’ and this is about the future. We have been excluded from plans by the Super League. Like Hitler invading the Rhineland in 1935, we missed our chance to put a stop to this 10-20-30 years ago and it’s all too late now. RIP football, I’m done with it in all honesty.

Things for new fans to look forward to.
Beer, hot dogs and pretzels consumed in your seat.
Fabulous fried chicken.
Madonna or Bruno Mars at half time.
Time outs
No 0-0 draws.
Lots of spitting.
Everyone in caps
Jack Nicholson in the dug out.
253 subs...........

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Interesting article in the FT this morning saying that the JP Morgan money is not a bonus but a loan - the clubs will be paying off the debt for 23 years at £250m every year.

That makes it even more baffling that the clubs are happy to leave the PL

If the UEFA man on the radio this morning is correct, this plan is simply a bluff to leverage a greater proportion of domestic and CL TV money. They have no real intention of signing up to a pirate monkey tennis league.

Perhaps the best stance is simply to let the Violet Elizabeth Bigsixbotts thkweam and thkweam until they are thick. They can then pull their knickers up and make us all a cup of tea.

 

[drew]

I think some sort of ESL is inevitable. It is now as easy to get to Rome or Madrid from London as it is to get to Newcastle; and usually cheaper (or at least it was pre-Covid). The pressure from the top teams to get a bigger slice of the money that they overwhelmingly generate is similar to the pressure that resulted in the Premier League.

A lot of fans would welcome a return to a more competitive league in England (and probably other countries as well). Most people will agree that the football was more exciting in the Championship even if the quality wasn't of the same level.

A league of 20 teams with two each from England, Germany, Spain and Italy; one from France, Holland, Belgium and Portugal with the other 8 decided on some sort of qualifying tournament for the first year (which could include more teams from the previous 8 countries). The key difference between this and the current ESL proposal being that there would be relegation and promotion - details to be worked out - so there would still be the (vanishingly small) possibility of any club getting to the top.

This is obviously not what "the Big Six" want as there won't be six of them and they can still get relegated but it would be a compromise that gives the very top clubs the money that they are looking for whilst still retaining some competitive integrity.

Yes, money will drain out of the Premier League; it won't cure overspending and stupid salaries (just look at the Championship) but this is not going to go away so better to do it in an orderly fashion that works in some way for everyone.

You seem to be missing the point that they don't want relegation and promotion because that would jeopardise revenues. It's not about merit, it's about money.

 

[dazzer6666]

I am pretty sure a player on £110k would quite like to earn £400k per week, yes.

Perhaps not if it’s career-limiting - no internationals, potentially no going back. We haven’t seen a flood of current talent to China despite the daft wages they have been paying.

 

[McTavish]

They have already said new league is the priority and would use second string players for the domestic league.


There is talk of the ESL comprising 20 clubs. Presumably, they will play each other home and away. Thats 38 games. If they stay in the PL, thats another 38 games. We will find out in due course whether they will be competing in domestic cups. Throw in friendlies, Charity Shield, etc.
I thought these clubs wanted to play less games!!!! I thought they wanted a mid-season break!!! Bloody hell...they could be playing 85 games a season. I just cannot see how they can do both. Totally unrealistic.

The proposal is two leagues of ten with a knock out competition for the Championship. Total of 23 (or 25) games to win it. Still lots of football though but no League Cup and no other European Football. I'm sur they would still use weakened teams in some of the Premier League matches (particularly against other ESL teams perhaps).

 

[dazzer6666]

Things for new fans to look forward to.
Beer, hot dogs and pretzels consumed in your seat.
Fabulous fried chicken.
Madonna or Bruno Mars at half time.
Time outs
No 0-0 draws.
Lots of spitting.
Everyone in caps
Jack Nicholson in the dug out.
253 subs...........

.....and games lasting 3 hours

 

[Swansman]

Things for new fans to look forward to.
Beer, hot dogs and pretzels consumed in your seat.
Fabulous fried chicken.
Madonna or Bruno Mars at half time.
Time outs
No 0-0 draws.
Lots of spitting.
Everyone in caps
Jack Nicholson in the dug out.
253 subs...........

Tbf I like Jack Nicholson

 

[drew]

Just to make it clear to nearly everyone on this board, we are termed ‘legacy fans’ and this is about the future. We have been excluded from plans by the Super League. Like Hitler invading the Rhineland in 1935, we missed our chance to put a stop to this 10-20-30 years ago and it’s all too late now. RIP football, I’m done with it in all honesty.

Well most of us are legacy fans. However, whilst most clubs want to retain the legacy fans as well as attract new ones, the big six see legacy fans as deadweight and want to replace them with new fans.

 

[McTavish]

You seem to be missing the point that they don't want relegation and promotion because that would jeopardise revenues. It's not about merit, it's about money.

No, I'm not missing that point at all. I'm just saying that if some sort of ESL is inevitable then a compromise solution is worth examining. If you increased the top four leagues to three guaranteed places then the Spanish would be happy; the Italians would also be fairly happy; Germany and PSG might come on board and then you have a workable solution.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think some sort of ESL is inevitable. It is now as easy to get to Rome or Madrid from London as it is to get to Newcastle; and usually cheaper (or at least it was pre-Covid). The pressure from the top teams to get a bigger slice of the money that they overwhelmingly generate is similar to the pressure that resulted in the Premier League.

A lot of fans would welcome a return to a more competitive league in England (and probably other countries as well). Most people will agree that the football was more exciting in the Championship even if the quality wasn't of the same level.

A league of 20 teams with two each from England, Germany, Spain and Italy; one from France, Holland, Belgium and Portugal with the other 8 decided on some sort of qualifying tournament for the first year (which could include more teams from the previous 8 countries). The key difference between this and the current ESL proposal being that there would be relegation and promotion - details to be worked out - so there would still be the (vanishingly small) possibility of any club getting to the top.

This is obviously not what "the Big Six" want as there won't be six of them and they can still get relegated but it would be a compromise that gives the very top clubs the money that they are looking for whilst still retaining some competitive integrity.

Yes, money will drain out of the Premier League; it won't cure overspending and stupid salaries (just look at the Championship) but this is not going to go away so better to do it in an orderly fashion that works in some way for everyone.

1. No, the Championship is poor compared with the EPL. It lacks finess. If you define excitement using the harum scarum scale then the place to be is the 'national league' (vauxhall conference).

2. That is not what is being proposed. An effectively smaller champions league is not going to earn these clubs more money.

3. No, it isn't what the big six want so where are you getting these plans from?

The first two sentences in your post seem to justify what I assume are your proposals. But....what you are proposing is not an alternative to anything, it is just a semi permanent rosta for the CL (in different format) that makes the chance of getting into Europe by doing well in domestic leagues less likely, making domestic leagues more parochial and inward looking. Who benefits from that? It isn't as if Barcelona and Real Madrid have any trouble qualifying for the CL every season so why would they seek a sinecure? And it is just as easy to get from Manchester to Barcelona now (CL format) as it would be in the ESL. In any case, ease of access and travel costs for away fans is serious not part of the algorithm here!

Nah....the whole thing, like the EUFA man said today, is bullshit.

 

[Mo Gosfield]

Just to make it clear to nearly everyone on this board, we are termed ‘legacy fans’ and this is about the future. We have been excluded from plans by the Super League. Like Hitler invading the Rhineland in 1935, we missed our chance to put a stop to this 10-20-30 years ago and it’s all too late now. RIP football, I’m done with it in all honesty.

The PL was set up to establish 5 clubs as elite members of the league, earn the most money and try and give them a better chance of European participation. Of those five, Everton failed to maintain progression and Chelsea and City, after a massive influx of money, joined the party later on. The PL has given these six clubs the platform to outgrow all other clubs, establish a global fanbase and sign the best players. They have also attracted global investment.
And now, having reached this position of control and dominance, they feel they don't need anyone else anymore. Its everyone else who needs them. As a famous boxer said once....." all I want is everything "

 

[McTavish]

If the UEFA man on the radio this morning is correct, this plan is simply a bluff to leverage a greater proportion of domestic and CL TV money. They have no real intention of signing up to a pirate monkey tennis league.

Perhaps the best stance is simply to let the Violet Elizabeth Bigsixbotts thkweam and thkweam until they are thick. They can then pull their knickers up and make us all a cup of tea.

Not so sure. The ESL clubs have been leveraging successfully for 15 years or so. They now don't just want a bigger slice of the pie, they want the pie. There have never been resignations from Uefa committees as there has been this time with Agnelli and Woodward both stepping down.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

UEFA has always been good when it comes to this, fighting the giants, with exception of the corrupt Platini. Lennart Fat Cat Johansson was always in a war against the big clubs and Lars-Christer has always been in that battle as well. Current boss Aleksander Ceferin is also someone I have a lot of confidence in, seems to be a very genuine and well-willing person.

Much less confident that FIFA are going to step up. Olsson said yesterday that he does not rule out that there will be a conflict between UEFA and FIFA.

Indeed. Is that the same FIFA that awarded Qatar the world cup, only to find out later that it's ****ing hot in Qatar in July? Yes. Yes it is

 

[Publius Ovidius]

They have already said new league is the priority and would use second string players for the domestic league.

Sent from my CPH2173 using Tapatalk

Which is what we do for cup games to be fair

 

[Mo Gosfield]

The proposal is two leagues of ten with a knock out competition for the Championship. Total of 23 (or 25) games to win it. Still lots of football though but no League Cup and no other European Football. I'm sur they would still use weakened teams in some of the Premier League matches (particularly against other ESL teams perhaps).

Ok....so 23-25 games in the ESL.....38 games in the PL.....FA Cup?....1-6 games.....they are all going to be playing over 60 games a season, without pre-season friendlies, tours, etc.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Not so sure. The ESL clubs have been leveraging successfully for 15 years or so. They now don't just want a bigger slice of the pie, they want the pie. There have never been resignations from Uefa committees as there has been this time with Agnelli and Woodward both stepping down.

UEFA will fight, it seems, and ESL proponents have only one weapon - their franchises. They may feel that they can still 'win' by creating their own private league (their only option if UEFA blocks the ESL) but as we saw with the Harlem Globetrotters, a pirate monkey circus has only limited earning power. Agnelli and Woodward of course have walked. Their position nside the ten is untenable. But these individuals won't lose anything by doing this, in the long run, even if the ESL does not happen.

 

[McTavish]

1. No, the Championship is poor compared with the EPL. It lacks finess. If you define excitement using the harum scarum scale then the place to be is the 'national league' (vauxhall conference).

I agree, but a lot of people on this thread are saying "good riddance, happy to have a more competitive league again

2. That is not what is being proposed. An effectively smaller champions league is not going to earn these clubs more money.

I know that's not what's being proposed - it's what I'm proposing. It's a whole league so each team would play each of the other teams twice a year - no first league stage where you might end up playing Braga, Atalanta or some team from Albania. Guaranteed two matches against Juventus, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, PSG and Real Madrid

3. No, it isn't what the big six want so where are you getting these plans from?

They're my proposals.

The first two sentences in your post seem to justify what I assume are your proposals. It is just a semi permanent rosta for the CL (in different format) that makes the chance of getting into Europe by doing well in domestic leagues less likely, making domestic leagues more parochial and inward looking.

Yes, agreed to a certain extent, but my starting point is that something like this is inevitable so do we want getting into the ESL difficult or impossible? I would also expect the Europa league or similar to continue so there would still be a chance to play in Europe.

Who benefits from that? It isn't as if Barcelona and Real Madrid have any trouble qualifying for the CL every season so why would they seek a sinecure? And it is just as easy to get from Manchester to Barcelona now (CL format) as it would be in the ESL.

The ESL teams benefit from being assured of home and away matches against all the top teams in Europe every year.

In any case, ease of access and travel costs for away fans is serious not part of the algorithm here!

I hadn't even considered that travelling fans were any part of the calculations by the ESL or UEFA - I was talking about the teams.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

No, I'm not missing that point at all. I'm just saying that if some sort of ESL is inevitable then a compromise solution is worth examining. If you increased the top four leagues to three guaranteed places then the Spanish would be happy; the Italians would also be fairly happy; Germany and PSG might come on board and then you have a workable solution.

It’s not a workable solution that benefits football though and that is the point of the opposition to the plans. Watching Agnelli being interviewed about the ESL he is very clear that this is all about the revenue to be gained from the big clubs playing each other rather than against smaller clubs from smaller countries. He couldn’t care less about football. In fact he equates Juventus etc being in trouble with football being in trouble. He and the rest are putting an intentional cap on the ambitions of every football club on the continent barring the 12. Jamie Carracher also made the point that they are leveraging the history of our clubs established a long time before the arrival of these foreign billionaires. We should not be aiming for compromise with organizations that only care about their own interests.

 

[McTavish]

Ok....so 23-25 games in the ESL.....38 games in the PL.....FA Cup?....1-6 games.....they are all going to be playing over 60 games a season, without pre-season friendlies, tours, etc.

Which is not disimilar to the number of games that they are playing now. I'm not disagreeing with your point about weakened teams, just pointing out that it is not quite as many games as you thought. Some Premier League sides would probably look like current League Cup teams.