[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

'Because they have have private healthcare and a private income and therefor don't need a properly staffed NHS or working age taxpayers to pay their pensions or benefits' would be the sensible answer

I was not talking about the 'many politicians you know,none of whom are stupid'.I was talking about ordinary people who have to wait a week to see their GP.

 

[ManOfSussex]

The EU is a political organisation - it's hardly a hate crime to burn it's flag. It would be no different to burning a poster with the Tory party logo on it. An LGBT flag would be an entirely different matter and rightly so. The police would be rather pathetic to get involved with someone burning an EU flag.

We'll see - I'm not a police officer or a lawyer. Always interesting the type of people who find flag burning funny though.

Speaking of Tory flags, they're the ones who sold them out on the transition anyway, but never mind - they won, they should get over it.

 

[Two Professors]

We need younger people to come and work here to keep up the contributions in taxes and NI.

As for housing, family splits and high rents are far more to blame than immigrants. I knew of two separate people who had two three bedroomed houses to themselves.
There is a large plot of land near me which has been sold for development with planning permission. That was over a year ago, and nothing has been done to it. The price of land is rising all the time, so it is an investment to sit on plots of land, without actually doing anything.

So we should find 90,000 houses with just one person in them?Problem solved,eh?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Same reason they'd care if LGBT flag was burned for example - it could be classed as a hate crime.

Nope unless it was part of a riot, or to incite violence and that's just the Union flag.

Let’s deal with legality first.

It’s only a crime in as much as burning any other flag would be. There are contexts where it might be criminal—and waving a burning flag around might be rather dangerous to other people nearby. Could be a breach of the peace or break some laws over protesting or something, I guess. But burning the Union Flag/Jack is only as illegal as burning, oh, the Belgian flag or the Italian flag or whatever.

It could be part of a particularly unpleasant and vitriolic speech intended to incite violence, which is a criminal offence. It might be done against an ordinance to protest (for instance: if it were done without permission in the environs of Parliament Square, it might be against the Serious Organised Crime and Policing Act 2005).

But unless there were some other factor that made it illegal, merely burning the Union Flag/Jack on its own is not a criminal offence (nor should it be).

Now, does anyone care? I can’t imagine that burning the flag would make one particularly popular, but I don’t think many people would consider it desecration—it’s not a holy relic or anything.

Some people who are particularly nationalistic would find it offensive, crude and disrespectful. Most people would be somewhere between that and “meh, that’s kinda stupid, but whatever, free speech”. I personally can’t think of any contexts off the top of my head where burning the flag would make me think better of a person or their views, but they can do whatever they damn well please, so long as they paid for the flag.

We don’t really have the same sort of nationalist flag-waving and patriotic sentiment here as in the US. We don’t take the flag nearly as seriously, nor many other aspects of patriotism.

Something like the Pledge of Allegiance would not happen here. It wouldn’t work. Nobody would take it seriously. When we do have oaths of allegiance, for new citizens, or for police constables or members of the armed forces, people make their oath to the Queen (or the King), not to the flag.

This is not to say people don’t have any affection for the country. But it is very much not overt. For a lot of people, British patriotism is more of a comfortable feeling of being at home rather than an explicit flag-waving extravaganza you might find in America. And the fact our national reaction to someone burning a flag tends more towards “oh, look, an attention-seeking idiot, better not give them any attention” rather than “what an evil traitorous bastard—lock them up until they learn to love FREEDOM” is one of many things that makes Britain feel like home.


No, it’s not a crime in itself.

If the flag belongs to someone else and you set fire to it without their permission, then obviously you could be charged with criminal damage or vandalism. If you throw the burning flag at passers-by or wave it around in a crowded place in a dangerous manner, you could be arrested for assault or breach of the peace. But simply burning a flag isn’t illegal; it’s protected under the right to freedom of expression

I imagine the reaction of most British people to seeing this “act of desecration” would be to roll their eyes and say “Okay, whatever”. They may also employ sarcasm, or say ‘tut tut’. A small minority may become genuinely outraged and write an angry letter to the Daily Mail.

There’s currently a petition on the Parliament website to make it a criminal offence to burn the UK flag. It’s attracted a grand total of 13 signatures. By contrast a petition to legalise cannabis got 236,995 signatures and the one to ban Donald Trump from entering Britain got 586,933 signatures, while the petition to hold a second EU referendum has 4,141,171 signatures.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

So we should find 90,000 houses with just one person in them?Problem solved,eh?

Ah, if only life and solutions were as simple.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Nope unless it was part of a riot, or to incite violence and that's just the Union flag.

Let’s deal with legality first.

It’s only a crime in as much as burning any other flag would be. There are contexts where it might be criminal—and waving a burning flag around might be rather dangerous to other people nearby. Could be a breach of the peace or break some laws over protesting or something, I guess. But burning the Union Flag/Jack is only as illegal as burning, oh, the Belgian flag or the Italian flag or whatever.

It could be part of a particularly unpleasant and vitriolic speech intended to incite violence, which is a criminal offence. It might be done against an ordinance to protest (for instance: if it were done without permission in the environs of Parliament Square, it might be against the Serious Organised Crime and Policing Act 2005).

But unless there were some other factor that made it illegal, merely burning the Union Flag/Jack on its own is not a criminal offence (nor should it be).

Now, does anyone care? I can’t imagine that burning the flag would make one particularly popular, but I don’t think many people would consider it desecration—it’s not a holy relic or anything.

Some people who are particularly nationalistic would find it offensive, crude and disrespectful. Most people would be somewhere between that and “meh, that’s kinda stupid, but whatever, free speech”. I personally can’t think of any contexts off the top of my head where burning the flag would make me think better of a person or their views, but they can do whatever they damn well please, so long as they paid for the flag.

We don’t really have the same sort of nationalist flag-waving and patriotic sentiment here as in the US. We don’t take the flag nearly as seriously, nor many other aspects of patriotism.

Something like the Pledge of Allegiance would not happen here. It wouldn’t work. Nobody would take it seriously. When we do have oaths of allegiance, for new citizens, or for police constables or members of the armed forces, people make their oath to the Queen (or the King), not to the flag.

This is not to say people don’t have any affection for the country. But it is very much not overt. For a lot of people, British patriotism is more of a comfortable feeling of being at home rather than an explicit flag-waving extravaganza you might find in America. And the fact our national reaction to someone burning a flag tends more towards “oh, look, an attention-seeking idiot, better not give them any attention” rather than “what an evil traitorous *******—lock them up until they learn to love FREEDOM” is one of many things that makes Britain feel like home.


No, it’s not a crime in itself.

If the flag belongs to someone else and you set fire to it without their permission, then obviously you could be charged with criminal damage or vandalism. If you throw the burning flag at passers-by or wave it around in a crowded place in a dangerous manner, you could be arrested for assault or breach of the peace. But simply burning a flag isn’t illegal; it’s protected under the right to freedom of expression

I imagine the reaction of most British people to seeing this “act of desecration” would be to roll their eyes and say “Okay, whatever”. They may also employ sarcasm, or say ‘tut tut’. A small minority may become genuinely outraged and write an angry letter to the Daily Mail.

There’s currently a petition on the Parliament website to make it a criminal offence to burn the UK flag. It’s attracted a grand total of 13 signatures. By contrast a petition to legalise cannabis got 236,995 signatures and the one to ban Donald Trump from entering Britain got 586,933 signatures, while the petition to hold a second EU referendum has 4,141,171 signatures.

Interesting - thanks for that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I was not talking about the 'many politicians you know,none of whom are stupid'.I was talking about ordinary people who have to wait a week to see their GP.

I don't and never have done. We have two local surgeries in this town, and I can ring up at 8.30 and get a same day appt. It may be a person to GP or a telephone appt. but I don't know anyone else around this area, who hasn't been seen for a week unless it's a planned 7 day in advance booked one.
It doesn't help that patients don't bother turning up for their appointments which cost the NHS over £1Bn last year. Eight million (8M) no shows.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ealth-service-nurse-doctors-gps-a8137686.html

 

[WATFORD zero]

I was not talking about the 'many politicians you know,none of whom are stupid'.I was talking about ordinary people who have to wait a week to see their GP.

Well I would suggest that voting to stop recruitment of GPs and Healthcare workers wouldn't be the best start.

 

[Two Professors]

I don't and never have done. We have two local surgeries in this town, and I can ring up at 8.30 and get a same day appt. It may be a person to GP or a telephone appt. but I don't know anyone else around this area, who hasn't been seen for a week unless it's a planned 7 day in advance booked one.
It doesn't help that patients don't bother turning up for their appointments which cost the NHS over £1Bn last year. Eight million (8M) no shows.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ealth-service-nurse-doctors-gps-a8137686.html

Well I have just been on-line and checked with Iridium,our local service provider,and the earliest non-emergency appointments I can get are the 18th and 19th of April.Perhaps you don't have quite as many immigrants in your town,compared to the city I live in.I have a witch doctor in the area,but I don't think he takes much pressure off the NHS!

 

[Two Professors]

Well I would suggest that voting to stop recruitment of GPs and Healthcare workers wouldn't be the best start.

Perhaps you should change your voting habits,then.

 

[looney]

We need younger people to come and work here to keep up the contributions in taxes and NI.

This is the big lie. Its creating a problem to hide another problem, banning abortion would be more on point.

Secondly weve still got shit loads of unemployed, better use of resources.

Thirdly, This is what happens when you flood labour markets for 2 generations.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Well I have just been on-line and checked with Iridium,our local service provider,and the earliest non-emergency appointments I can get are the 18th and 19th of April.Perhaps you don't have quite as many immigrants in your town,compared to the city I live in.I have a witch doctor in the area,but I don't think he takes much pressure off the NHS!

Sounds like Luton

 

[Baldseagull]

If you honestly think the City of London is doomed to lose out to Frankfurt or Paris then you are seriously deluded. Yes, some jobs will go, but as we have seen with the inward investment, what companies say to put pressure and try to influence compared to what they actually do ion practice, are 2 separate things.

ALl of the financial institutions will leave the majority of their work here, as the City is set-upo to handle the volumes. Frankfurt and Paris aren’t. Also, Euro clearing is in reality, a small amount trade/profit for the City.

Tens of thousands of jobs involved.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Well I have just been on-line and checked with Iridium,our local service provider,and the earliest non-emergency appointments I can get are the 18th and 19th of April.Perhaps you don't have quite as many immigrants in your town,compared to the city I live in.I have a witch doctor in the area,but I don't think he takes much pressure off the NHS!

There's quite a few although not as many as Birmingham. I have previously lived in the north, and had no problem there either. In fact, I got better referrals to the specialists up there, than I have to the Sussex County here.
Immigrants do not cause a problem to the NHS.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Tens of thousands of jobs involved.

Or maybe not ...

Forecast of Brexit job losses from City of London drops by half

https://news.sky.com/story/forecast-of-brexit-job-losses-from-city-of-london-drops-by-half-11306851

Adding it to my LIST... recession, planes grounded, cancer drugs availability, an exodus from the City

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

A referendum isn't legally binding no matter how many times the Brexiteers say it is. The government is elected by the people to act in our best interests. Our government has stated Brexit is not in our best interests but carries on anyway because they are too afraid to counter the supposed "will of the people". I would like to think one day our government will be held to account for what they are doing but they never do, do they.

bore off Toff zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ..........the vote was to leave deal with it
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

There's quite a few although not as many as Birmingham. I have previously lived in the north, and had no problem there either. In fact, I got better referrals to the specialists up there, than I have to the Sussex County here.
Immigrants do not cause a problem to the NHS.

health tourists don't you just love them
regards
DR

 

[larus]

There's quite a few although not as many as Birmingham. I have previously lived in the north, and had no problem there either. In fact, I got better referrals to the specialists up there, than I have to the Sussex County here.
Immigrants do not cause a problem to the NHS.

My ex gf was a midwife in London and she said the opposite. She said there’s also an issue with people coming to the country to get medical care and then going back home. I think I’d take her first-hand frontline experience as being more accurate.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

We need younger people to come and work here to keep up the contributions in taxes and NI.

As for housing, family splits and high rents are far more to blame than immigrants. I knew of two separate people who had two three bedroomed houses to themselves.
There is a large plot of land near me which has been sold for development with planning permission. That was over a year ago, and nothing has been done to it. The price of land is rising all the time, so it is an investment to sit on plots of land, without actually doing anything.

THEY'RE HERE ALREADY BUT NOT PAYING ANY TAX ??

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...er-ever-illegal-immigrants-live-work-britain/
regards
DR

 

[Thunder Bolt]

THEY'RE HERE ALREADY BUT NOT PAYING ANY TAX ??

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...er-ever-illegal-immigrants-live-work-britain/
regards
DR

Dear pretty fairy

Please don't get mixed up between EU migrants and illegal immigrants. Brexit will not stop illegal immigrants.

Kind regards
TB.