Southern Rail STRIKE details

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

In case anybody missed the (count 'em) EIGHT circumstances under which a train can depart without an OBS, here they are, courtesy of The Argus:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1507...trains_to_run_without_conductors/?ref=mr&lp=3

They are:

- Unauthorised absence, no staff cover
- Late notice sickness, no staff cover
- OBS delayed on way to work
- OBS delayed by service disruption
- OBS unable to continue shift – eg through sickness or assault
- Error by driver or OBS leading to the OBS behind left behind
- OBS has to leave train to cope with passenger incident or emergency
- “Should coverage of duties be impacted as a consequence of widespread or sudden high intensity sickness, the parties commit to working together to deliver the best possible service arrangement for the benefit of passengers.”

So basically they're nothing more than a 'nice to have'. Which means their role will be phased out earlydoors, probably in the next financial year round of GTR cost-cutting.

 

[ROSM]

Up to now, the govt have been very clear that they blame the unions. If however the union members vote against this plan, it will be interesting to see how the government deal with it. Given their new found appreciation of the will of the people being paramount, how can they criticise the drivers who don't support a plan they consider to be unsafe?

 

[beorhthelm]

In case anybody missed the (count 'em) EIGHT circumstances under which a train can depart without an OBS, here they are, courtesy of The Argus

the funny thing is that's far more circumstances than where offered to the RMT, which they rejected. particularly like "Error by driver or OBS leading to the OBS behind left behind" - is that a real scenario?

 

[happypig]

the funny thing is that's far more circumstances than where offered to the RMT, which they rejected. particularly like "Error by driver or OBS leading to the OBS behind left behind" - is that a real scenario?

happened last week
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-38807979

 

[Arthur]

In case anybody missed the (count 'em) EIGHT circumstances under which a train can depart without an OBS, here they are, courtesy of The Argus:

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/1507...trains_to_run_without_conductors/?ref=mr&lp=3

They are:

- Unauthorised absence, no staff cover
- Late notice sickness, no staff cover
- OBS delayed on way to work
- OBS delayed by service disruption
- OBS unable to continue shift – eg through sickness or assault
- Error by driver or OBS leading to the OBS behind left behind
- OBS has to leave train to cope with passenger incident or emergency
- “Should coverage of duties be impacted as a consequence of widespread or sudden high intensity sickness, the parties commit to working together to deliver the best possible service arrangement for the benefit of passengers.”

Well as a passenger I'd still rather the train ran than not so they seem reasonable to me.

So basically they're nothing more than a 'nice to have'. Which means their role will be phased out earlydoors, probably in the next financial year round of GTR cost-cutting.

I guess only time will tell with regards to that.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Well as a passenger I'd still rather the train ran than not so they seem reasonable to me.

You're not in a wheelchair or need special assistance then? And let's hope it's not your twelve coach train that has an incident with 1500 people on board with only one driver to deal with things.

 

[pearl]

Up to now, the govt have been very clear that they blame the unions. If however the union members vote against this plan, it will be interesting to see how the government deal with it. Given their new found appreciation of the will of the people being paramount, how can they criticise the drivers who don't support a plan they consider to be unsafe?

starve them out I should imagine is the Tory plan

 

[Postman Pat]

Just for completeness.....
The first paragraph commits to having an OBS (On Board Supervisor, the new name for conductors) on most trains, saying: “GTR will guarantee that drivers are supported by committing to diagram and roster an OBS [On Board Supervisor] for all services that previously had a conductor on August 21, 2016 ... All services will normally operate with both a driver and an OBS.

“However, both GTR and ASLEF recognise that there are circumstances when, for the benefits of passengers, the overall service and employees, Southern services covered by this arrangement will run without an OBS.”

There are eight circumstances in which the two sides have agreed – pending the ratification of the agreement by the union members – that the train can run without an OBS.

They are:

Unauthorised absence, no staff cover
Late notice sickness, no staff cover
OBS delayed on way to work
OBS delayed by service disruption
OBS unable to continue shift – eg through sickness or assault
Error by driver or OBS leading to the OBS behind left behind
OBS has to leave train to cope with passenger incident or emergency
“Should coverage of duties be impacted as a consequence of widespread or sudden high intensity sickness, the parties commit to working together to deliver the best possible service arrangement for the benefit of passengers.”

This last clause has worried the RMT but Simon Weller of Aslef said it was for exceptional circumstances. “It’s basically for the zombie apocalypse,” he said.

He added that although the deal did not explicitly mention industrial action one way or another, the agreement was understood by both sides not to extend to strike action. He warned that if GTR tries to tell drivers to continue working despite an RMT strike, Aslef would strike as well.

 

[Arthur]

You're not in a wheelchair or need special assistance then?

Thankfully no I'm not like 99.9% of the other passengers. Unfortunate for the 0.01% granted but as I've stated before on this thread how did these disabled passengers handle the stations that aren't accessible and weren't prior to this whole episode?

And let's hope it's not your twelve coach train that has an incident with 1500 people on board with only one driver to deal with things.

As I said I'd rather be on a train and going somewhere and it being delayed than it not going anywhere.

 

[Ernest]

Just for completeness.....
The first paragraph commits to having an OBS (On Board Supervisor, the new name for conductors) on most trains, saying: “GTR will guarantee that drivers are supported by committing to diagram and roster an OBS [On Board Supervisor] for all services that previously had a conductor on August 21, 2016 ... All services will normally operate with both a driver and an OBS.

“However, both GTR and ASLEF recognise that there are circumstances when, for the benefits of passengers, the overall service and employees, Southern services covered by this arrangement will run without an OBS.”

There are eight circumstances in which the two sides have agreed – pending the ratification of the agreement by the union members – that the train can run without an OBS.

They are:

Unauthorised absence, no staff cover
Late notice sickness, no staff cover
OBS delayed on way to work
OBS delayed by service disruption
OBS unable to continue shift – eg through sickness or assault
Error by driver or OBS leading to the OBS behind left behind
OBS has to leave train to cope with passenger incident or emergency
“Should coverage of duties be impacted as a consequence of widespread or sudden high intensity sickness, the parties commit to working together to deliver the best possible service arrangement for the benefit of passengers.”

This last clause has worried the RMT but Simon Weller of Aslef said it was for exceptional circumstances. “It’s basically for the zombie apocalypse,” he said.

He added that although the deal did not explicitly mention industrial action one way or another, the agreement was understood by both sides not to extend to strike action. He warned that if GTR tries to tell drivers to continue working despite an RMT strike, Aslef would strike as well.

And we know how the courts treat agreements that are not written down in stone rather than implied. Weller as an ex Brighton driver has sold his ex comrades out

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Thankfully no I'm not like 99.9% of the other passengers. Unfortunate for the 0.01% granted but as I've stated before on this thread how did these disabled passengers handle the stations that aren't accessible and weren't prior to this whole episode?

As I said I'd rather be on a train and going somewhere and it being delayed than it not going anywhere.

I'm sure we'll soon be seeing a whole load of trains going nowhere once ASLEF & the RMT get back into strike mode

 

[Ernest]

I'm sure we'll soon be seeing a whole load of trains going nowhere once ASLEF & the RMT get back into strike mode

Not so, I think it would mean that the government would finally act and take the franchise off of GTR

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Not so, I think it would mean that the government would finally act and take the franchise off of GTR

Won't be the government (DfT) that does it. It'll be the combined pincer movement of the National Audit Office (NAO) and the Association Of British Commuters (ABC) that finally forces these ****s hand and forces them to return to some form of public accountability While hopefully destroying some of these ****s careers in the process.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Not so, I think it would mean that the government would finally act and take the franchise off of GTR

So, you don't foresee any further industrial action then? I'd have thought that would happen almost immediately following rejection of the deal (perhaps requiring another ballot). The other 'angles' - Audit Office etc surely are going along irrespective of the current negotiations (and the RMT and the RMT and GTR are meeting soon again - not that I expect anything to come of it). Without strike action, what's the driver (no pun intended) to get this resolved?

 

[Ernest]

So, you don't foresee any further industrial action then? I'd have thought that would happen almost immediately following rejection of the deal (perhaps requiring another ballot). The other 'angles' - Audit Office etc surely are going along irrespective of the current negotiations (and the RMT and the RMT and GTR are meeting soon again - not that I expect anything to come of it). Without strike action, what's the driver (no pun intended) to get this resolved?

The drivers don't need to do anything , GTR will be gone sooner rather than later once the drivers reject the deal

 

[theboybilly]

And we know how the courts treat agreements that are not written down in stone rather than implied. Weller as an ex Brighton driver has sold his ex comrades out

The Aslef Southern Company Council has much to answer for not just Simon Weller

 

[Hampster Gull]

Not so, I think it would mean that the government would finally act and take the franchise off of GTR

I suggest we privatise the lot and SORT this problem out NOW

 

[Postman Pat]

Absolutely. No one wants this dispute to continue but no way can we agree with this terrible deal. I await to hear what Aslef have to say for themselves but I have yet to hear any driver who will vote in favour of this.

Did this happen yesterday? Is there anything you can tell us that came out of it? Assuming the drivers are going to reject the deal, what happens next - more strikes or back to negotiation?

Apologies for so many questions.

 

[Deadly Danson]

Did this happen yesterday? Is there anything you can tell us that came out of it? Assuming the drivers are going to reject the deal, what happens next - more strikes or back to negotiation?

Apologies for so many questions.

No problem. I think the negotiators believe that it's the best deal we are going to get and it's up to the RMT to argue the case for full safety critical training and route knowledge for OBSs. Most drivers down here at least I think will vote against the deal because it really doesn't offer anything in the way of compromise from GTR. I think most drivers accept that the battle for DOO is probably lost but if we have to dispatch the train then, at the very least, the OBS should be fully safety critically and route trained and should be guaranteed on every service (maybe except during the worst periods of disruption - not when their mother's goldfish has died - the company should have enough manpower to be able to run trains when there is a bit of staff sickness) and the cameras should be of a decent quality to minimise the reduced level of safety that having only one pair of eyes rather than two obviously brings. And to answer your question - if the drivers do vote no (and it may be close as I suspect quite a few metro drivers will vote yes and contrary to opinion we are all really tired of the dispute) then assuming GTR don't get back round the negotiating table then I suspect more strikes will be called and/or a rest day ban. However, as others have said it may also be that other events with judicial reviews etc change matters further anyway before it comes to further strikes.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

No problem. I think the negotiators believe that it's the best deal we are going to get and it's up to the RMT to argue the case for full safety critical training and route knowledge for OBSs. Most drivers down here at least I think will vote against the deal because it really doesn't offer anything in the way of compromise from GTR. I think most drivers accept that the battle for DOO is probably lost but if we have to dispatch the train then, at the very least, the OBS should be fully safety critically and route trained and should be guaranteed on every service (maybe except during the worst periods of disruption - not when their mother's goldfish has died - the company should have enough manpower to be able to run trains when there is a bit of staff sickness) and the cameras should be of a decent quality to minimise the reduced level of safety that having only one pair of eyes rather than two obviously brings. And to answer your question - if the drivers do vote no (and it may be close as I suspect quite a few metro drivers will vote yes and contrary to opinion we are all really tired of the dispute) then assuming GTR don't get back round the negotiating table then I suspect more strikes will be called and/or a rest day ban. However, as others have said it may also be that other events with judicial reviews etc change matters further anyway before it comes to further strikes.

Can't see GTR in a million years offering RMT anything more than they offered ASLEF. In fact, GTR's whole demeanour to date suggests they regard RMT as pretty much irrelevant to their business goals. GTR are only worried about the drivers coming out on strike. That makes the national news. Not that the drivers pussy union leaders give GTR much to worry about. Hopefully ASLEF members will provide a harsh reality check to the guys whose union salaries they pay.