[Politics] Brexit

[cunning fergus]

I wanted the 350 million to go to the NHS not subsidise a Japanese multinational!

Don't worry, there is literally hundreds of millions of extra money pouring into the NHS from the UK taxpayer as it is not recovering money from foreigners using it.........or even identifying them.

http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-failing-to-hit-target-for-charging-health-tourists-10634829

Run it properly and maybe it wouldn't even need the £350m

 

[cunning fergus]

If we are on WTO tariffs for cars, cars made anywhere else in the world is where we can buy from, the transportation may add cost but we already import half a Billion quids worth of motors from India, Ford aims to make India it's global hub for manufacture, Nissan, BMW and others are already producing there and they make right hand drive for the domestic market there.
The dilemma for the manufacturers is where to build which models, if they can make cars in Spain and sell across the EU for about the same as building in India, paying an import tariff, and shipping, they will continue to build in Spain. But if one of the larger export markets for that car built in Spain now needs a tariff paying, they may switch all production to India, or at least all the left hand drive versions, which will at minimum reduce Spains exports, at worst lose 2,000 jobs, exports down and imports up.
Cars are going to be wanted to be tariff free by any country that makes a model sold in Britain. This does not mean it will happen, but it does make it more likely.

I agree to a point, fact is that global multinationals will go where it is cheapest to manufacture overall, this includes the ability to ramp productivity up and down as dictated by demand.

Spain is a great example as since the credit crisis wrecked its economy its Govt has taken an axe to its labour laws and workers rights. Since then, the country has seen huge investment in its car plants.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/car-makers-pour-money-into-spain-1470613487

Some may see this situation as a success, which for the rabid pro EU capitalist of course it is, however the reality on the ground is that Spanish car workers are now being employed at rates 40% below what they were in 2010 and zero job protection.

 

[Chicken Run]

So it's alleged that the government sweet talked Nissan, softened them up etc etc, and by the looks of it saved jobs and given a future to the motor industry in Sunderland, I cant believe that people see a negative in this!!!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Don't worry, there is literally hundreds of millions of extra money pouring into the NHS from the UK taxpayer as it is not recovering money from foreigners using it.........or even identifying them.

http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-failing-to-hit-target-for-charging-health-tourists-10634829

Run it properly and maybe it wouldn't even need the £350m

Quite. And ditto the 150,000 non EU folk coming here last year that we have every right to not let in, if we don't want to, because the EU has no say over this, but about whom we are too disorganized and hopeless to do anything. Will Brexit make us less disorganized and hopeless? I am an optimist so I say YES, Brexit will make every one of us less disorganized and less hopeless.

BUT nothing that has happened yet is due to Brexit because we haven't brexitted yet. . . . the changes to our finances etc are just a reflection of how organizations think things may be AFTER brexit . . . but like everyone else, they don't really have a clue yet.

 

[Butch Willykins]

So it's alleged that the government sweet talked Nissan, softened them up etc etc, and by the looks of it saved jobs and given a future to the motor industry in Sunderland, I cant believe that people see a negative in this!!!

Exactly, people got upset when the government didn't step in (TATA steel) and then upset when they do. They can't win.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You repeatedly fail to understand what I'm saying because it challenges a basic tenet of your belief system. You think I have a narrow view but, as an obviously fervent servant of your religion, it's your very subjectivity that denies you the perspective to form any objective assessment.

I understand that parliamentary accountability is important to you and your beliefs and you also believe that it is important to millions of others. What I'm saying is that you are unable to separate your belief from reality and that you assume but you don't know the others who voted the same way as you in the referendum share your motivation.

Throughout history, every belief system has maintained control and order over their adherents by promising future benefits; Christian religions promise an eternal life of pleasure or pain, English Trial by Ordeal promised proof of innocence through survival, Communism promises each according to their needs, Hinduism promises reincarnation & eternal life, Capitalism promises future wealth for all, Mediaeval witch trials promised truth by drowning, the UK justice system promises truth by oath & jury, Democracy promises you accountability.

You repeat the mantras of your own religion and your opinion is based on your belief but that does not make it real or true.

You do not know that millions argued that we should have full control of lawmaking, that is your assumption. How many people know what the UK lawmaking process is? How many people know what the EU lawmaking process is? How many people know which laws were passed by the EU. Are all the laws passed by the EU bad? Which EU laws would you have challenged? How did you attempt to influence those EU laws you object to? How many people know which EU laws the UK voted against. How many people know which EU laws were significantly modified by the UK before they reached the statute books? How many people know which laws originated in the European Court of Human Rights? How many people have been informed about EU laws by tabloid? How many people have been informed about EU laws by their own basic psychological needs?

You do not know that we will have full control of lawmaking once we have left the EU, that is your assumption. Who are "we"? What is "full control"? What additional benefit will we derive? How will you personally benefit from having full control of lawmaking? What additional freedoms will you enjoy? How will your life be improved? How will UK society benefit?

Neither you can nor anyone else has described what "full control of lawmaking" entails.

You state . No they didn't, that is your assumption. Did they know what the accountability of the EU is? Do you know what accountability the EU has? Do you know what accountability the UK retains within the EU? Do those other millions?



I know you're blinded by your faith but if you'd read and (here's the key) understood what I'd posted earlier on this thread then you'd realise why that comes across as such a silly little conceit.

You may be right about people being blinded by their faith. It is an interesting question which comes first; the belief (from gut instinct) then an attempt to fit the facts after the event or the reverse. It is the reason I stay out of the day to day debate as the reality is that there will be good and bad news from now on and using it like a goal in a football match to justify one's own view is pointless. There are a lot of moving parts in an economy so whether the Nissan deal or the value of the pound is good or bad doesn't tell us anything.
The part of your post that intrigued me was the implication in your questions that there is considerable doubt as to whether people understand the political and legal systems in which we live. It kind of makes me think that you are as guilty of fitting facts to your beliefs as the next person. The implications of your assertion are startling as it would mean there is no democratic mandate. I hadn't previously given this much thought but you clearly have and just like in pre full suffrage times you seem content living
under an ever more complex and opaque (because it is not understood) system. This may explain the rather contemptuous Remain attitude that Leave voters were actually too stupid to entrust with such a decision. I may be being a little unfair of course as I shouldn't generalise from your views to the entire Remain side. Restricting it to you though and as you clearly think about the issues Im not sure I believe that you would be in favour of such a lack of democratic mandate if someone turned up on your door 40 years ago trying to sell it.
I do think you have a point though about the EU. I am not entirely sure I understand how it operates and I certainly don't feel enfranchised by its processes.By contrast, I do feel I understand the U.K. System of local and national democratic elections and independent legal system interpreting parliamentary law in a purely U.K. context.
Sorry to quote a post of yours from several pages back but your philosophical point was of more interest to me than the barrage of attempted self justifying 'I told you so' arguments for which this thread is famous.

 

[nicko31]

Exactly, people got upset when the government didn't step in (TATA steel) and then upset when they do. They can't win.

Perhaps the gov are telling the truth and Nissan take the view its a win win for them


Scenario A, Single market retained without tariffs

Scenario B Hard brexit, devalued pound UK is cheap labour

Plus the bonus of less workers rights in the future now we can opt out of EU rules

 

[beorhthelm]

Exactly, people got upset when the government didn't step in (TATA steel) and then upset when they do. They can't win.

yes, it was comical hearing McDonnell yesturday opposing for the sake of opposing, saying he did want to see adhoc arrangements made for each company. because that's his policy. (though its highly unlikely what has been done, it's going to be sector by sector arragments)

 

[ManOfSussex]

yes, it was comical hearing McDonnell yesturday opposing for the sake of opposing, saying he did want to see adhoc arrangements made for each company. because that's his policy. (though its highly unlikely what has been done, it's going to be sector by sector arragments)

The Government gave no details yesterday and as much as I have no time for McDonnell, his job is to hold this right-wing Government to account and scrutinise their actions, including what they're doing over Brexit.

 

[beorhthelm]

The Government gave no details yesterday and as much as I have no time for McDonnell, his job is to hold this right-wing Government to account and scrutinise their actions, including what they're doing over Brexit.

thing was he didnt "hold the government to account" he made a glib comment in which he made assumptions and then criticised them, ignoring that the assumptions also form the basis of his own policy of centrally controlled economy. he could have just left it at asking for the government to make the nature of any arrangement known. yes, we should know the arrangements, i expect politicians not to speculate what they are (leave that to media and us)

 

[drew]

This thing with car sales, surely manufacturers will look to where the markets are growing more? 75 million car sales last year and only 2.6 of those in the UK. I would guess that the UK market is not likely to grow substantially. Biggest markets are China, USA and Japan. Germany are fourth and we are fifth. France and Italy follow closely.

The thing with Nissan and the government is not that they have done something to save jobs but that no one knows what has been done, what has been said or what 'assurances' have been given.

 

[ManOfSussex]

thing was he didnt "hold the government to account" he made a glib comment in which he made assumptions and then criticised them, ignoring that the assumptions also form the basis of his own policy of centrally controlled economy. he could have just left it at asking for the government to make the nature of any arrangement known. yes, we should know the arrangements, i expect politicians not to speculate what they are (leave that to media and us)

At least he's trying these days. That's an improvement at least.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Last-ditch No 10 pledge kept Nissan in Britain

Carmaker will be shielded from Brexit costs

Ministers were forced to give a last-minute written promise to protect Nissan from the consequences of Brexit before the carmaker agreed to keep investing in the UK, The Times has learnt.

Nissan announced yesterday that it would build two new car models at its Sunderland plant, securing thousands of jobs. Downing Street denied that it had made a sweetheart deal or offered state aid.

Greg Clark, the business secretary, is understood to have written to the board of the Japanese company pledging to ensure that its UK operations “remain competitive” after Britain pulls out of the European Union. The letter came after a stand-off when Nissan warned the government that it could not invest in Britain unless it received high-level written guarantees about future trading conditions.

Mr Clark’s letter is regarded by Nissan as a promise that it will not have to bear the cost of punitive tariffs on car exports if Britain leaves the EU customs area without a free trade agreement in place.

It led to calls from other car manufacturers for similar pledges. Toyota said that it trusted the government to provide “fair treatment”.

Nissan’s plant in Sunderland makes almost one in three British-built cars and produced 475,000 vehicles last year — 80 per cent of which were exported to the EU. The company accounts for 1.4 per cent of all British exports. The new investment will protect Sunderland’s 6,700-strong workforce and is likely to create further jobs. Production will rise to about 600,000 cars a year once production begins for the new Qashqai and X-Trail SUV models.

Downing Street was desperate to ensure that Nissan’s long-planned investment was not affected by Britain’s vote to leave the EU. The company raised the issue of potential tariffs in meetings with Theresa May and Mr Clark, it is understood. The business secretary flew to Japan, at the company’s request, to meet board members before its decision.

While the government’s letter makes no specific mention of insulating the company from potential extra costs, it includes an assurance that Nissan will not lose out as a result of Brexit.

The two sides discussed the possibility that tariffs imposed on EU cars entering Britain could be used to compensate manufacturers in the event of a hard Brexit, The Times understands. It was only after Mr Clark’s letter was received by the company that the board agreed to build its new models in Sunderland.

“The support and assurances of the UK government enabled us to decide that the next-generation Qashqai and X-Trail will be produced at Sunderland,” said Carlos Ghosn, Nissan’s chief executive, adding that he welcomed Mrs May’s “commitment to the automotive industry in Britain”. Last month Mr Ghosn warned that Nissan might not invest in the plant unless the government guaranteed compensation for costs related to any new trade tariffs resulting from Brexit.

Pressed on whether written assurances on compensation for any future EU tariffs had been given, Mr Clark told World At One on BBC Radio 4 that there had been “no question” of financial compensation. He did not deny that a letter had been sent to the company containing guarantees.

“We have had, obviously, lots of communication between us, but actually what it rests on is a very strong mutual confidence,” he said. “There is no question of financial compensation over tariffs because we have said that we are going to maintain the competitiveness of the sector, and we are going to get the best deal possible.

“We think that the mutual interest between our European neighbours and ourselves is very strong in this way.”

Colin Lawther, Nissan’s senior vice-president for manufacturing in Europe, denied there was a special deal for the company. “There is no offer of exchange. It’s just the commitment from the government to work with the whole of the automotive industry to make sure that the whole automotive industry in the UK remains competitive,” he said. Asked if Nissan had received written assurances from the government on what would happen if tariffs were imposed in the future, he said: “There’s no special deal for Nissan. We would expect nothing for us that the rest of the industry wouldn’t be able to have access to.”

Chi Onwurah, the shadow minister for industrial strategy, welcomed Nissan’s decision but said that it suggested chaos in government. “We welcome the 7,000 jobs secured by this deal through the hard work and campaigning of many unions, businesses and organisations,” she said. “But the fact it reached this point shows the chaos the government is in, waiting for individual businesses across the country to hit crisis point before stepping in to help. The whole country is harmed by this incoherent approach.”

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/last-ditch-no-10-pledge-kept-nissan-in-britain-fbhg07fx0

 

[beorhthelm]

At least he's trying these days. That's an improvement at least.

yes, it was remarkable to see him on the TV, made me realise hadn't seen or read anything from the Labour front bench for about 3 weeks. they've left the Brexit opposition to Clegg and Miliband.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

the attempts at tarring everyone with the same brush have occurred

when people like [MENTION=33848]The Clamp[/MENTION] come out with



its very clear where the sentiments of some(not all) remainers lie. its silly to pretend it has not occurred on these various referendum threads

It is not silly at all. Suggestions that remainers were bedwetters, traitors and balls-free wimps floated round, especially in the early days but I really don't recall anyone ever suggesting that 17m Englishmen were racists, in spite of one poster's loony claims that it happened. The 'example' you pasted was chronically weak - for right or wrong I took The Clamp's reference to brown foreigners to be a reaction to Farage's June billboard showing middle-eastern gents heading towards us (a billboard the poster with the loony claims presumably supported, being an enthusiastic UKIP supporter).

Are you trying to convince us you belong to some sort of victimhood cult?

 

[Soulman]

Hopefully the 500m lost on health care tourists last year can be brought down and this and more money from EU savings can help our NHS.

 

[studio150]

Hopefully the 500m lost on health care tourists last year can be brought down and this and more money from EU savings can help our NHS.

Not only dont answer questions but unable to acknowledge when wrong

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

With regard to the debate about whether Remainers tarnished Leavers as racists it's worth my pointing out that one poster on here (who shall remain nameless) insisted I confirm that I am not a racist when I was arguing for Leave. I also heard James O'Brien on LBC last week making similar insinuations. Not sure these examples fit into the narrative that the Remain camp never indulged in such generalized abuse......

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Not only dont answer questions but unable to acknowledge when wrong

I don't know the numbers but seems odd that when i go abroad I need medical insurance cover and yet NHS hospitals in the U.K. refuse to bill visitors from abroad using similar facilities here.

 

[studio150]

I don't know the numbers but seems odd that when i go abroad I need medical insurance cover and yet NHS hospitals in the U.K. refuse to bill visitors from abroad using similar facilities here.

Totally agree, NHS are keen to get money back from motor accidents and employees work injuries, but are unable to ask if a visitor is eligible for free treatment or needs to pay. Fortunately I have never needed to have medical treatment while abroad, but there are enough stories in the papers to support the view that foreign hospitals etc are more clued up on seeking payment. This may be down to no NHS model abroad.