Gazwag
5 millionth post poster
As there are zero trains through Bexhill I wonder if railtrack are taking the opportunity to do all of the general track maintenance on the line to avoid the regular weekend bus services
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Southern Rail STRIKE details
- Thread starter Ernest
- Start date
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
Not stats as such but worth a read: https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-launches-new-dossier-exposing-safety-risks-of-doo/
Again I ask - why would anyone think it's a better idea for ever longer and ever more overcrowded trains to have less safety critical staff on board? This isn't modernisation - it's simply saving cash for shareholders.
"A report funded by the Train Operating Companies own safety body has warned that introducing Driver Only Operation, and sacking guards on train services, will increase risks to passengers, RMT can reveal today.
Incredibly, despite that admission, the report dismisses those risks and recommends that every guard should be sacked in order to cream off another £350 million in profits.
“Evaluating technological solutions to support driver only operation train dispatch” by the Train Operating Company (TOC’s) funded Railway Safety Standards Board (RSSB) warns that,
“DOO does not create additional undesired events but may increase the likelihood of an event occurring or increase the severity of its consequence.”
It goes on to say that “The risk level of each undesired event will vary according to platform features, rolling stock, driver behaviour and passenger behaviour and passenger flows.”
Yet despite the risk to passengers the report says the TOCs should sack guards on every train company. This will rake in £350 million over five years (see timetable below).
It concludes that “Analysis of the business case indicates that the expected payback time for national rollout under the same assumptions would be three years, and that the best estimate for return over 5 years would be £350m.”
Savings are to come directly from employing less staff to help passengers and by downgrading safety protections for passengers .
The report argues that “This can arise from employing fewer staff, and from replacing guards with cheaper non-safety critical on-train staff (NSCOS)” and that “Safety critical training for guards would no longer be required, which would reduce the training requirement from 12 weeks to 4 weeks for the second staff member on board”.
That's a DOO service, presumably?
I suspect it's so quiet because other people don't want to play Russian Roulette on such dangerous trains.
Well done on being one of the lucky survivors though.
Deadly Danson
Well-known member
Not really relevant. The new 700s are Thameslink and will run DOO anyway (but are equipped to have a guard). The new Gatwick Express trains are pretty much the same as the standard 377s but with slightly improved cameras but can operate with or without a guard. This line that the company trots out that all these new trains won't be used is an outright lie.
lost in london
Well-known member
Thanks, I am a quiet hero. The trepidation is palpable on the platform when one of these monsters pull in to the platform with a wide eyed, sun-blinded, maniacal driver behind the wheel. Many less brave customers just chose to wait for the next train to arrive, not me, I just get on and only occasionally suffer a catastrophic life-changing injury.
Tony Meolas Loan Spell
Slut Faced Whores
I have reached that stage. Neither side gives a **** about us. Not really. And Im past caring about the bleating of safety. If that REALLY was the concern then they would be on the trains proving a point.
The best way they could have got their message across was when (lets call them Southern for ease) were turning away conductors/guards from running trains to suit their agenda. Thats when they should have had thier campaign "we want to run trains BUT Southern DONT"
Sadly they failed and to them I say **** you. This strike has broken my support for them. BIG TIME. Im sure there are many more.
Are the '700s' the new Thameslink stock ? Quiet and roomy inside (stranding room anyway) but the seats are hugely uncomfortable and lack legroom (in keeping with the old Thameslink presumably).................
attila
1997 Club
The whole thing is a Tory unionbusting exercise with Govia used as a front. It's a fcking disgrace.
“It was clear right from the start of these talks that there was no serious intent from Govia Thameslink to engage in genuine negotiations and that their script was being written from behind the scenes by their government paymasters. You would have thought they would have taken our arm off when we offered to suspend the action in return for a series of guarantees that simply mirror the proposals from Scotrail just a couple of a few days ago.
“I have been involved in countless negotiations and have never witnessed a farce like this. The person running this circus wasn’t even in the room and we now know from well placed industry sources that it was Peter Wilkinson – the man who boasted that he was itching for a punch up with the unions. He told Govia to stonewall, reject and wreck the talks process. As they are paid directly by the Government on this contract that is exactly what they have done. It is disgraceful.
“Our action in defence of rail safety and the safety critical role of the guard now goes ahead next week and passengers caught in the middle of this wrecked process will be rightly furious that the talks that could have resolved this issue were sabotaged by Mr Wilkinson and his team from the off.
“Passengers will be well aware that Mr Wilkinson commutes from Vienna and is paid £280,000 a year as a government hit man. Our members refuse to cave in to his bullying and intimidation and will be standing firm. He made it clear in his infamous Croydon speech that he intends to starve our members back to work. It’s that aggressive and provocative attitude that has blocked all attempts to resolve the Southern dispute.
“Compared to the progress we have been able to make on Scotrail it is clear as day that GTR is being set up as a testing ground for a national union-busting experiment. That nonsense should be stopped right now and we should be allowed to get back to normal industrial relations, free from outside interference.”
Editor’s Note;
Peter Wilkinson is the DfT Director responsible for rail franchising. Here are the quotes from his meeting in February this year as reported by the Croydon Advertiser.
"Over the next three years we're going to be having punch ups and we will see industrial action and I want your support," Mr Wilkinson told residents in Croydon Town Hall at a meeting organised by Croydon Central MP Gavin Barwell.
"I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them," he said.
"They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards.
"They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.
"They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."
“It was clear right from the start of these talks that there was no serious intent from Govia Thameslink to engage in genuine negotiations and that their script was being written from behind the scenes by their government paymasters. You would have thought they would have taken our arm off when we offered to suspend the action in return for a series of guarantees that simply mirror the proposals from Scotrail just a couple of a few days ago.
“I have been involved in countless negotiations and have never witnessed a farce like this. The person running this circus wasn’t even in the room and we now know from well placed industry sources that it was Peter Wilkinson – the man who boasted that he was itching for a punch up with the unions. He told Govia to stonewall, reject and wreck the talks process. As they are paid directly by the Government on this contract that is exactly what they have done. It is disgraceful.
“Our action in defence of rail safety and the safety critical role of the guard now goes ahead next week and passengers caught in the middle of this wrecked process will be rightly furious that the talks that could have resolved this issue were sabotaged by Mr Wilkinson and his team from the off.
“Passengers will be well aware that Mr Wilkinson commutes from Vienna and is paid £280,000 a year as a government hit man. Our members refuse to cave in to his bullying and intimidation and will be standing firm. He made it clear in his infamous Croydon speech that he intends to starve our members back to work. It’s that aggressive and provocative attitude that has blocked all attempts to resolve the Southern dispute.
“Compared to the progress we have been able to make on Scotrail it is clear as day that GTR is being set up as a testing ground for a national union-busting experiment. That nonsense should be stopped right now and we should be allowed to get back to normal industrial relations, free from outside interference.”
Editor’s Note;
Peter Wilkinson is the DfT Director responsible for rail franchising. Here are the quotes from his meeting in February this year as reported by the Croydon Advertiser.
"Over the next three years we're going to be having punch ups and we will see industrial action and I want your support," Mr Wilkinson told residents in Croydon Town Hall at a meeting organised by Croydon Central MP Gavin Barwell.
"I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them," he said.
"They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards.
"They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.
"They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."
So looks like Southern are offering a compromise. Will it be enough? Seems to address all the issues.
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,332
this seems the popular conspiracy, with some merit, but its got a couple of problems. DOO is in operation on the lines and in other areas, so this arguement that its to engineer a precedence to allow DOO through out the network doesnt stand up. Southern claim they've offered a similar deal to Scotrail with a condition for exceptional circumstances, this hardly sounds like smashing the union. quoting the RMT making claims based on heresay (if Wlikinson isnt in the room how does Cash know what he is saying?) doesnt really help make the case for why we should have a second staff member on trains.
why havent the unions made a public awareness campaign of the issues to gain publicity, rather than strike? in this day of online petitions why is there a "strip the TOC of the franchise" petition, but apparently not a "keep safety trained staff on trains" or "keep ticket offices open" campaigns?
Ernest
Stupid IDIOT
- Thread starter
- #2,172
I was talking to a couple of old Union colleagues earlier and they were saying this strike is a massive mistake by the RMT, no need to strike when the service is already in chaos and all it's done is deflect the blame from SASTA to the union strikers and the other thing is that when you ruin peoples pleasure such as tonight and Friday again you lose support no matter how just your case is.
The RMT should have worked normally and said we're all working as we should, everyone who should be working is here but it is Southern refusing to run trains despite train crew and trains being here so what can we do ?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 35,332
did i just hear the sound of a penny dropping?This is exactly my thoughts on the current situation. I should imagine GTR are happy for this dispute to carry on as long is it can as it deflects attention away from their inability to run the franchise effectively.
Tony Meolas Loan Spell
Slut Faced Whores
Its a shame the old union colleagues are not there now.
There could have been enormous PR on the side of the guards. Imagine that a big banner saying "here we are but Southern do not want us" as we see endless cancellations on the boards. The media, everyone would have paid attention. Imagine that. An employer actually STOPPING you from working.
But they WILLINGLY CHOSE to do it now when everyone is at their wits end and it plays nicely into SASTAS hand. Utter cretins. Hence no sympathy for them.
Beach Hut
Brighton Bhuna Boy
VTEC staff voted to go on strike now so could balls up Newcastle away
- Guarantees that every train currently operated with a conductor will continue to have either a traditional conductor or a second member of staff on-board;
- Guarantees traditional conductors will retain their current competencies and second members of on-board will be trained to safety-competent standards including track safety training, evacuation, traction and full route knowledge (excluding train dispatch) which will pass to the driver;
- Joint agreement by both Southern and RMT on the driver having full control of train dispatch and joint agreement by both parties to a proposed list of exceptional circumstances whereby a train can run without a second member of staff on-board;
- Guarantees to retain the On-board Supervisor role (OBS) beyond 2021, should GTR retain the franchise and minimum levels of voluntary overtime for all OBS staff, details of which would be agreed with the RMT
- A joint review in 12 months time of the new OBS role to include role development, training and career progression;
- Collective bargaining rights for OBS staff.
I guess the question is whether Point 3 will be met with blanket refusal to ever consider the driving controlling dispatch?
Tom Hark Preston Park
Will Post For Cash
- Jul 6, 2003
- 70,371
Fails at the very first bullet point. No point even reading the rest.
Yeah, point three stuck me as the sticking point, but it feels like Southern are giving a lot here. Surely RMT will be willing to compromise a little? Or have they backed themselves into a corner by talking about train safety so much?
It appears to be very close to the ScotRail deal though, which RMT indicated recently they'd be willing to at least suspend any further action over.