[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

And here you have it: A Little Englander.

Are you going through some mid-life crisis or something ? I only ask as recently you've posted some pretty bizarre things - some under the banner of being humorous when they've actually been offensive - and now this rather pathetic jibe which brings you down to the level of our friend in Prague. Not like you, you usually present a more intelligent argument.

 

[The Rivet]

I don't have a disabled person in my household but the baroness would have more experience of disabled people's lives than most of us. What's your point?

I don't think you have any idea of the problems disabled people face. If you think the EU has enhanced their lives you are living in cloud cuckoo land but, all remainers live in cloud cuckoo land. Do NOT ask me to post links of proof or link to reports. I don't need to and many others with disabled people in their families will identify.

 

[Soulman]

Are you going through some mid-life crisis or something ? I only ask as recently you've posted some pretty bizarre things - some under the banner of being humorous when they've actually been offensive - and now this rather pathetic jibe which brings you down to the level of our friend in Prague. Not like you, you usually present a more intelligent argument.

Getting desperate in case his beloved Germany loses the UK cash.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

He is the Labour leader, voted in by the party members and the unions. As a leader sometimes you have to make difficult choices for the best interest of your country. That is what he has done. He should hold his head high

Like the turncoat Neil Kinnock you mean ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

My mistake, passport controls then.

You mean like there already are ?

 

[melias shoes]

Getting desperate in case his beloved Germany loses the UK cash.

Which is why 80% of Germans want us to remain. They're worried that the financial burden will increase for them.

 

[The Rivet]

I'm going to post this again because NO remainer seems able to dispute the assertion. Where are you remainers. Is this a wrong representation. Weak response. Prove me wrong.

The whole EU edifice is rotten, like Fifa. If decisive action is not taken by us it is still only a matter of time. Europe, if you care to be widely read, is on the brink. Eastern European pacts against compulsory migrant quotas. Hungary openly saying Muslims are not compatible. Poland pissed at what they see as their Sovereignty being interfered with. Scandinavian countries being overwhelmed. France in economic and employment collapse. Marine La Pen popularity soaring. Italy on economic brink. Greece F*cd. Migrant chaos thanks to Merkel. Schengen area a complete joke. unaccountable/electable elites. Europe will collapse without our Money. My god I could go on.
Vote OUT of this mess!

I'm not fishing just making a bloody big valid point. Money/economy is not the be all and end all as the remainers like to argue.

 

[cunning fergus]

Are you sure he'd be in the Leave camp? I know you like claim every square inch of the high ground for Brexit but consider...

"We have Britain's membership of the EU to thank not just for steps forward in disabled people's rights and opportunities, but also in relation to the prohibition of age discrimination, maternity rights, equal pay and ensuring our safety at work, We are all better protected and our lives made better by the EU's laws and regulations.

"What the Leave campaign promises is a bonfire of these hard-won rights, unravelling decades of progress that would not have been made were it not for Britain's membership of the European Union."

Four signatories to a letter to The Times this morning, including Baroness Grey-Thompson.

Since the last European referendum we have had governments of various colours, including almost a quarter of a century of Conservative-led administrations. I for one don't think progress have been the same without our membership of the EU. Perhaps Mr Corbyn feels the same.

As a lifelong socialist I think in this instance Corbyn is lying, the signatories maybe lying but it's possible like many people on this thread they know nothing about this country's social history.

Frankly we have neither our Govt or the EU to thank for workers rights, they have been won at cost by the past generations of workers in spite of Govts not because of them.

Workers first won a right to guaranteed paid holidays through the 1871 Bank Holidays Act.

Workers fought for a Holiday with Pay Act in 1938.

Workers had paid holidays before the EU’s Working Time Directive and the UK's minimum position is still more generous than the EU's

The 1970 Equal Pay Act was passed before we joined the EU, and well before the EU’s Employment Equality Directive of 2000.

The EU has done nothing to stop governments, Tory and most shamefully Labour, from imposing anti-trade union laws, which were all legal under EU law. Lest we forget the removal of clause IV.

Employment rights in EU directives do nothing to protect the rights to strike. The EU neither promotes nor protects collective bargaining. There is absolutely nothing in EU law that gives trade unions any more protection than national laws.

EU directives do not protect any of the rights workers have won.

If we left tomorrow, the laws would still stand. They did not come from the EU; they do not depend on our being in the EU.

Far from protecting workers’ rights, the EU has demanded the destruction of trade union rights as a condition of its bailouts in Greece, Ireland and Portugal in addition to forced privatisation of state assets without consent by the people.

Frankly EU Treaties do not give a f*ck about workers’ rights it's about employers’ rights.......no more no less Tory boy.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

No -the good news is that you Leavers will benefit from immigration, just like the rest of us! And remember, the correct figure for net EU migration is 185k, not 330k. Just another little "error" which the Brexit camp like to make. Non-EU migration to the UK has ALWAYS been higher than EU migration.

EDIT - just re-read your post. Actually the Brexit camp claim ALL net migration is 330k ( as does the government ) NOT just EU migration.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

If we left tomorrow, the laws would still stand. They did not come from the EU; they do not depend on our being in the EU.

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/eu-rules
I agree with much of the post but contest this point.......as a commercial driver i have to abide by EU rules as well as UK rules..

Edit: i can be fined if breaking EU rules....legislation/laws

 

[larus]

Corbyn is the Labour leader. If he changes his mind then so be it. The best leaders adapt. Promising signs for Labour supporters

I wonder who gave him his new idea. Probably the trade unions told him. Principled to the last - great to see. I mean, he sounds so convincing in his adulation for the EU. Praise the Lord, I've seen the light (of the gravy train).

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I don't think you have any idea of the problems disabled people face. If you think the EU has enhanced their lives you are living in cloud cuckoo land but, all remainers live in cloud cuckoo land. Do NOT ask me to post links of proof or link to reports. I don't need to and many others with disabled people in their families will identify.

Yes, yes, I understand that some Brexiters on here think that EVERYONE in favour of remaining in the EU is a deluded fantasist living in Cloud Cuckoo Land but can I make it clear (although I shouldn't have to) that I didn't write the letter to The Times - it was written by four people in the public eye, including a well-known disabled person, and it made a simple point very strongly - that the EU has made the lives of disabled people better than they would otherwise have been. The calibre of the people concerned was not unimpressive and I felt that what they had to say might some bearing on the decision of Labour politicians to support continued membership. You tell me that all these people are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Fine. Tell them they don't know what they are talking about.

 

[The Rivet]

I stand by what I said.

 

[jaghebby]

Economic risk? Yeh, maybe a blip - but compare that to the risk of staying semi-attached to the train-crash to come that is the Euro, countries to bale out. OK, you think one's a bigger risk, I think the other. We won't ever agree. However, I believe the other positives of Brexit (being free to make our own laws, not under the heel of Brussels, trading with who we want, freeing ourselves from the ever present menace of a United States of Europe - and, yes, that's what they're after) are enough reason to leave. Plus the fact that we might be the start of a domino effect, which is why all the vested interests are pulling out all the lies - sorry, stops - to scare the masses into voting to stay.
If leaving upsets the fat cats on the Brussels gravy train, those in the Westminster bubble, and the city bankers ... .... ... ... so be it. Fine by me!

You really do talk a load of twaddle!

Who said we would have to bail out other countries in the Euro especially as we are not part of the Euro you make it up as you go along! We are already free to trade with the rest of the world or weren't you aware of that. Being in the EU doesn't prevent us from trading with who we want to as we sell more to the rest of the world than to the EU! Over the last 10 years goods we export have risen from £123bn to £134bn to EU but the big growth area has been selling services over the same time frame these have risen from £55bn to £88bn. If we did leave without us being there at the table for further liberalisation, and with new barriers erected then our strongly growing services to Europe would take a massive hit. Also if we did leave we still need to comply with standards set by the EU so where would the saving be there? Professor Patrick Minford of economists for Brexit also suggests no trade deals and the removal of all barriers unilaterally - however what fails to get mentioned is that this he has himself said doing this would more than likely mean the elimination of manufacturing industry in the UK! Clearly not a very sensible idea at all! We are already free to make our own laws only 10% of Acts before parliament relate to specific EU requirements rising to 14% where they are influenced by the EU hardly under the heel of Brussels. As I see it the brexiteers like yourself are at best deluded and at worst barefaced liars who I wouldn't trust anything they said.

 

[The Rivet]

You really do talk a load of twaddle!

Who said we would have to bail out other countries in the Euro especially as we are not part of the Euro you make it up as you go along! We are already free to trade with the rest of the world or weren't you aware of that. Over the last 10 years goods we export have risen from £123bn to £134bn to EU but the big growth area has been selling services over the same time frame these have risen from £55bn to £88bn. If we did leave without us being there at the table for further liberalisation, and with new barriers erected then our strongly growing services to Europe would take a massive hit. Also if we did leave we still need to comply with standards set by the EU so where would the saving be there? Professor Patrick Minford of economists for Brexit also suggests no trade deals and the removal of all barriers unilaterally - however what fails to get mentioned is that this he has himself said doing this would more than likely mean the elimination of manufacturing industry in the UK! Clearly not a very sensible idea at all! We are already free to make our own laws only 10% of Acts before parliament relate to specific EU requirements rising to 14% where they are influenced by the EU hardly under the heel of Brussels. As I see it the brexiteers like yourself are at best deluded and at worst barefaced liars who I wouldn't trust anything they said.

Nice change as you edited your discrepancy I was about to highlight.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Being in the EU doesn't prevent us from trading with who we want to as we sell more to the rest of the world than to the EU!

Remain seem to tell us that the EU is our largest trade partner.....that must mean imports then? so perhaps a leave will not result in horrendous tarrifs after all?

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Exactly. Vote leave.

your deluded and a barefaced liar......like me

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Who said we would have to bail out other countries in the Euro especially as we are not part of the Euro you make it up as you go along!

We'll just ignore the £14bn we contributed to Ireland's bailout then ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Being in the EU doesn't prevent us from trading with who we want to as we sell more to the rest of the world than to the EU!

No agreed, we are not prevented from trading with the rest of the world. What we CAN'T do is strike a better deal with any country the EU already has an agreement with. So even if we wanted to create a better deal with say Brazil, we couldn't because the EU deal prevents us from doing so.

 

[5ways]

I'm going to post this again because NO remainer seems able to dispute the assertion. Where are you remainers. Is this a wrong representation. Weak response. Prove me wrong.

The whole EU edifice is rotten, like Fifa. If decisive action is not taken by us it is still only a matter of time. Europe, if you care to be widely read, is on the brink. Eastern European pacts against compulsory migrant quotas. Hungary openly saying Muslims are not compatible. Poland pissed at what they see as their Sovereignty being interfered with. Scandinavian countries being overwhelmed. France in economic and employment collapse. Marine La Pen popularity soaring. Italy on economic brink. Greece F*cd. Migrant chaos thanks to Merkel. Schengen area a complete joke. unaccountable/electable elites. Europe will collapse without our Money. My god I could go on.
Vote OUT of this mess!

I'm not fishing just making a bloody big valid point. Money/economy is not the be all and end all as the remainers like to argue.

All anyone can say to that is tat the EU is not rotten, comparing it to Fifa is like apples to oranges.

Europe is not 'on the brink' but has actually returned to growth.

Eastern Europe and Hungary doesn't want refugees. Okay.

Poland is in a constitutional mess because the current government refuses to swear in judges appointed by the previous government. Then the constitutional court declared two laws from the Polish government unconstitutional. One required all judgement to have a two-thirds majority, rather than a simple majority, and increased the number of judges required to be present to pass a ruling. The Polish government however refused to publish the ruling made by the court, because "That the tribunal had not operated according to the dictates of the new law that it then found unconstitutional."http://www.vox.com/2016/6/1/11823742/poland-constitutional-crisis So it's a big mess and the Polish government is trampling on judicial sovereignty. The EU is putting pressure on Poland to stop the democratic backsliding. This is a good thing. I don't see how this can be a bad thing. The EU will always make democracy in Europe it's business. It's a good thing that Poland has a final recourse to undemocratic behaviour. Even if it is just moral pressure.

Scandinavian countries overwhelmed? Sweden has perhaps bitten off more than it can chew but they're not about to collapse. Denmark has taken a very different line, for example.

France is a perpetual mess but it's labour reforms are being pushed through. This is a good thing. Marie Le Pen soaring is a bad thing. She may get to the run-off but will very likely lose the presidential election.

Greece f**ked. Yes, but the new bail-out agreement is nearing completion so the worst is behind Greece.

Migrant crisis yes still bad. But at least there is a deal in place to divert the flow back to Turkey.

Schengen area still being enjoyed by 500 million people.

Unaccountable elites. Perhaps to a degree but if people simply paid attention they would be far more accountable. For a start by electing MEPs who do their jobs, not do nothing and collect their salaries while railing against the EU. See Ukip.

Europe will collapse without our money - no it won't.

All in all, some big problems but nothing insurmountable and nothing which justifies economic and political seppuku.