[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

Cameron now banging on about more expensive holidays surrounded by cabin crew.You couldn't make it up.Surely even those on Remain are cringing.

Cameron's a prat. We all know that. Sadly, millions still believe him, and even more incredibly, will vote the way he tells them too. Pathetic, really. A nation down the pan...........

 

[GT49er]

BBC606 is in your DNA

I beg your pardon?

 

[jgmcdee]

Oh dear! Prat takes four words out of a post and thinks they can make a witty and pertinent riposte. Guess that's the attitude that will sadly probably vote to remain because they're too gutless to do anything else. That's pitiful, sunshine, just pitiful.
(Apologies to the decent (if misguided) remainers on here, but when one sets themselves up for ridicule, what else can we do?)

Did you expect me to respond to:

All numbers are just wild guesses, aimed to support whichever side the producer of such numbers is on.

which is a cheap way of avoiding any intelligent interrogation of the information being put forward?

Or did you expect me to respond to:

The facts are simple. Do you want to become a part of a pan Europe super-state, dominated by Germany, and ultimately undemocratic, or do you wish to remain Britiish? There is no middle way, no bit of part of one part with some of the other. Its either or. No flexibility.
Reforming from inside is not an option - it doesn't work, it won't happen.

which is a bunch of your own personal supposition that you decided to label as fact?

 

[pastafarian]

I sense some frustration that people aren't just convinced by weight of numbers of speculative reports predicting we might possibly have growth at a slower rate if we vote to regain our independence.

Perhaps some people note many of these organisations don't have the best interests of the British people at heart, perhaps some detect a level of cynical manipulation for nefarious purposes, perhaps some don't simply take at face value everything governments tell us, perhaps some realise sovereignty doesn't belong to governments but to the people and don't won't it continually diminished, perhaps some value democracy and want as clear & short a route as possible to kick out the people instigating policy and laws, perhaps some people don't need a risk free blueprint which no one could honestly produce anyway realising no path in life is risk free, perhaps some people know we have been lied to and misled on immigration year in year out so want to send a clear unambiguous message that enough is enough, perhaps some resent voting for what they thought was staying in a purely economic trade block last time seeing it change beyond all recognition, perhaps some people think the EU is never going to reform and Ever closer union is inevitable come what may, perhaps some have faith in their country to prosper as an independent nation like the vast majority of nations throughout the world. Just a few reasons that people might have a valid and reasonable opinion at variance with yours that makes Brexit the better option.

Great post JC
Some remainers simply cant comprehend we dont all need to see a report in the FT to have valid reasons for leaving

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I hadn't seen this table before so thought I'd take a look to see if I could find any substance behind the numbers.

First off: IMF. I couldn't find a breakdown of their income but their net 2015 administrative expenditure was just north of $1bn. So the EU contribution, whatever it might be, covers around 0.015% of their requirement. Hardly a situation where the IMF could be considered in hock to the EU. Source: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/ar/2015/eng/pdf/table3.1.pdf

Next: OECD. It turns out that they don't take any funding at all from the EU. Source: http://www.oecd.org/about/budget/member-countries-budget-contributions.htm

I can't say I find the CBI or NFU particularly interesting so skipped them and moved on to the IFS. The table states that the EU contributed €7.4m to the IFS, which is odd because the IFS thinks that the EU contributed 11% of their total income of £7.4m. 11% of the budget is still a large chunk, but nowhere near what is suggested. Source: http://www.ifs.org.uk/uploads/documents/about/Trustees%20report%202014.pdf

At this stage I lost interest. The numbers are so far away from the reality of the situation they aren't worth contemplating.

Ah I should have provided you with the link ...

Pro-Remain groups which have made referendum interventions have received €160 million from the Commission in the last nine years:

http://order-order.com/2016/05/13/eu-paid-e160-million-to-pro-remain-groups/

Feel free to check if these figures are accurate.

I also seem to remember a government minister recently saying the OECD had received EU funding will try to find it for you

 

[jgmcdee]

Ah I should have provided you with the link ...

Pro-Remain groups which have made referendum interventions have received €160 million from the Commission in the last nine years:

http://order-order.com/2016/05/13/eu-paid-e160-million-to-pro-remain-groups/

Feel free to check if these figures are accurate.

I also seem to remember a government minister recently saying the OECD had received EU funding will try to find it for you

Thanks for responding. That makes the IFS numbers make more sense.

It does however make it significantly worse for the IMF (now down to 0.0016% of their overall budget).

The OECD budget page does seem quite convinced that its budget comes from member countries, although even if the EU did contribute the number stated it's less than 1% of their budget over the past 9 years.

I'm not sure the argument that these groups are producing reports to keep their own pockets lined is a particularly strong one given this. Are you?

 

[melias shoes]

ANOTHER bail out deal for Greece. 10.3 billion this time. Yet another reason for leaving this money draining failing organisation.

 

[melias shoes]

Turkey trying to stall on the migrant 'deal'. No visas. No deal.

 

[East Preston Gull]

All numbers are just wild guesses, aimed to support whichever side the producer of such numbers is on.

The facts are simple. Do you want to become a part of a pan Europe super-state, dominated by Germany, and ultimately undemocratic, or do you wish to remain Britiish? There is no middle way, no bit of part of one part with some of the other. Its either or. No flexibility.
Reforming from inside is not an option - it doesn't work, it won't happen. Now, your point is?

This, figures are put out to deliberately baffle and confuse. It comes down to democracy. We got bored of the Tories and voted Blair. We got bored of Labour and voted a coalition. We got bored of brokebrit mountain and sent clegg on his way. This EU Referendum was encouraged early by the suits in Brussels as they felt they had a chance of winning in 2016 and did not want to risk a 2017 referendum. If we stay, Democracy is dead and so is Britain.
We will be known as section 45 of the United States of Europe.
Vote Leave!

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

 

[Bladders]

The honest truth is no one knows what will happen No one has left before but there seems to be an orderly queue forming!

I have yet to be persuaded to change my mind and after to speaking to a colleague of mine who was on business in Holland and meeting so many other Europeans on his visit, you would be surprised at how many are watching to see what we do, if we vote out my guess is a mass exodus would follow and we would definitely be stronger in the end .

Many people take the risk and leave employment to work for themselves without knowing what the future brings.
They make it work for themselves.
This is the attitude needed.
Problem is the remain camp are feeding on the fear of those who do not have this attitude.

 

[Hamilton]

This, figures are put out to deliberately baffle and confuse. It comes down to democracy. We got bored of the Tories and voted Blair. We got bored of Labour and voted a coalition. We got bored of brokebrit mountain and sent clegg on his way. This EU Referendum was encouraged early by the suits in Brussels as they felt they had a chance of winning in 2016 and did not want to risk a 2017 referendum. If we stay, Democracy is dead and so is Britain.
We will be known as section 45 of the United States of Europe.
Vote Leave!

Sent from my E6653 using Tapatalk

I sincerely hope we don't vote one way or the other just because "we got bored."

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Many people take the risk and leave employment to work for themselves without knowing what the future brings.
They make it work for themselves.
This is the attitude needed..

But equally many people prefer to avoid risk and have a life with more stability, especially the less well off and/ or vulnerable.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Europeans...., you would be surprised at how many are watching to see what we do, if we vote out my guess is a mass exodus would follow and we would definitely be stronger in the end .

What is your guess based on? Just the third hand anecdotal evidence you cite?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's the historians turn today.


More than 300 historians, including Simon Schama and Niall Ferguson, have said that a vote to leave the European Union will condemn Britain to irrelevance. In a letter, the academics and writers say the referendum offers a chance to underscore the “irreplaceable role” Britain has played, and should continue to play, in Europe’s history.

 

[Bladders]

It's the historians turn today.


More than 300 historians, including Simon Schama and Niall Ferguson, have said that a vote to leave the European Union will condemn Britain to irrelevance. In a letter, the academics and writers say the referendum offers a chance to underscore the “irreplaceable role” Britain has played, and should continue to play, in Europe’s history.

Oh well in that case I'm definitely voting IN!

Now the Historians have shown there hand its now a no brainer.

 

[jgmcdee]

...the IFS thinks that the EU contributed 11% of their total income of £7.4m.

Amused to hear this 11% number quoted on the Today programme a few minutes ago.

 

[drew]

The honest truth is no one knows what will happen No one has left before but there seems to be an orderly queue forming!

I have yet to be persuaded to change my mind and after to speaking to a colleague of mine who was on business in Holland and meeting so many other Europeans on his visit, you would be surprised at how many are watching to see what we do, if we vote out my guess is a mass exodus would follow and we would definitely be stronger in the end .

Many people take the risk and leave employment to work for themselves without knowing what the future brings.
They make it work for themselves.
This is the attitude needed.
Problem is the remain camp are feeding on the fear of those who do not have this attitude.

That's a romantic view of leaving the EU, comparing it to starting up on your own. That's a big risk bearing in mind about half of UK start ups fail within 5 years!

Where you are right is that no one knows exactly what will happen. However, people cannot make, indeed should not make, a decision without considering the projections. Those advocating Leave need to know what could be the effect on the economy. They can consider whether that is a price worth risking. I suspect many advocating Leave think any price is worth paying. That's their choice.

 

[Maldini]

The honest truth is no one knows what will happen No one has left before but there seems to be an orderly queue forming!

I have yet to be persuaded to change my mind and after to speaking to a colleague of mine who was on business in Holland and meeting so many other Europeans on his visit, you would be surprised at how many are watching to see what we do, if we vote out my guess is a mass exodus would follow and we would definitely be stronger in the end .
.

Totally agree.If the UK leave that could spell the end of the EU with other countries demanding their own referendums which I'm certain will happen.That's why everyone is siding up with Cameron in a desperate effort to avoid the UK leaving.

 

[Bladders]

That's a romantic view of leaving the EU, comparing it to starting up on your own. That's a big risk bearing in mind about half of UK start ups fail within 5 years!

Where you are right is that no one knows exactly what will happen. However, people cannot make, indeed should not make, a decision without considering the projections. Those advocating Leave need to know what could be the effect on the economy. They can consider whether that is a price worth risking. I suspect many advocating Leave think any price is worth paying. That's their choice.

Those looking to leave know that there will be some sort of effect on the economy ( thats the markets for you, any change affects them) but they doubt its as bad as the ''experts'' are forecasting (or guessing as I see it) but they are also looking beyond the next couple of years.

Going down the road with what the EU has planned really isn't the future I would want for those not even born yet. This is more than about a few quid in my pocket over the next couple of years.

Even if we do vote to leave its not going to happen overnight, it could take a couple of years to finanlise so there will not be some instant sky falling in shock to the economy.

 

[Bladders]

Totally agree.If the UK leave that could spell the end of the EU with other countries demanding their own referendums which I'm certain will happen.That's why everyone is siding up with Cameron in a desperate effort to avoid the UK leaving.

This is why the scare stories are so drastic, there are a lot of people with vested interests in keeping the EU together, but they know we are the first big domino that will start the tumbling if we leave, and they can't afford that to happen.