The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Notters]

I'm quite surprised that any business leaders have spoken out either way on this. With it being so contentious I would have thought that businesses only stand to lose out by alienating their customers, and doubt that many people will be swayed by a particular head of business coming out and saying "we should be in/out".

Unless they're really fecking worried about leaving the EU like I am?

 

[Notters]

One of the many problems of being a member of the bureaucratic nightmare that is the EU:

Pythagoras' theorem - 24 words.
Lord's Prayer - 66 words.
Archimedes' Principle - 67 words.
10 Commandments - 179 words.
Gettysburg address - 286 words.
US Declaration of Independence - 1,300 words.
US Constitution with all 27 Amendments - 7,818 words.
EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words

I hope the "leave" campaign use as many of these examples of made up bollocks as possible, as they will destroy any case they may have.

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/cabbage.asp

Straight bananas anyone?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I'm quite surprised that any business leaders have spoken out either way on this. With it being so contentious I would have thought that businesses only stand to lose out by alienating their customers, and doubt that many people will be swayed by a particular head of business coming out and saying "we should be in/out".

Indeed that's probably why the vast majority of FTSE companies refused to sign that letter. One part of Project fear implies economic disaster awaits if we leave so having business saying they support EU membership plays towards that message. This tactic won't change voters opinions who already have a firm view but I expect it may influence some of the uncommitted. (unfortunately)

His speech was almost all referendum-focussed - it was (unsurprisingly) the main topic of discussion at the conference, and the afternoon was more or less devoted to the topic. His overall narrative was broadly pro-leaving (which is no surprise as he's always been a Eurosceptic) but there were a couple of specific lines when he clearly stated his view that out was better for all - and that is what the members took issue with. He then undertook a number of media interviews where he was (seemingly) even more boldly pro-leaving.

The BCC are not slow to volunteer media contributions on issues that are uncontroversial to their members (e.g. increasing the dividend tax, or anything else which affects red tape or taxes on business). However on the referendum they'd clearly stated that their position was not to support either side (precisely because their membership is not unified on the issue). I think he could have got away with saying something vaguely supportive of Brexit (for example that a Brexit future might lead to less regulation and a more straightforward regulatory environment for business), but the problem was that he took a very clear position, while on stage at the BCC Annual Conference where he'd been given a slot in his role as Director General. I think if he'd have done the same but batting for the other side there would have been a similar fuss, because the organisation is beholden to it's members, and there are bound to be some members that strongly support leaving the EU, and that would complain about it.

On the wider topic - there are clearly people from all walks of life on both sides of the argument; 'the man on the street', business owners, politicians, bankers. There are compelling arguments to be made for both sides, and which I don't really think are being clearly made (so far this referendum has IMHO been up there as one of the worst UK-based examples of the terrible 'negative campaigning' that blights US politics). Both arguments have strengths and weaknesses, but most of the major players in this debate are being far too one-eyed. I'd welcome someone from either side acknowledging some of the concerns of the other, and stating that there are clearly some issues that will arise from their adopted position, but that the reason they still support it is X, Y and Z.

Thanks for that. It's good to have a first hand perspective and not solely rely on the usual biased sources with numerous differing agendas.

From your account I can see how he possibly overplayed his hand and strayed to far from a broadly neutral/representing all BCC members remit.

Funnily enough I think this episode could benefit the Brexit cause as most people will just pay a passing interest in the story and note that a major business figure was clear that life beyond an unreformed EU was both possible and could have a positive outcome. Any impression (true or not) of government interference or unfair treatment will also be exploited by the Brexit side.

Good luck in hoping for less negative campaigning. I think it will only get worse and more bitter, especially if it looks like a close outcome. Our wonderful media don't help matters, preferring to focus on the personalities rather than the issues. A lot of politicians careers depend on this result as well as the minor matter of the future of the UK!

 

[Deleted member 22389]

All I want is a proper border system put in place, so it doesn't feel like the whole world is descending on the UK and Europe, stop these ridiculous payments to Brussels, and feel that we are getting some sort of voice on how is country should be run. It's not too much to sodding ask is it?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

One of the many problems of being a member of the bureaucratic nightmare that is the EU:

Pythagoras' theorem - 24 words.
Lord's Prayer - 66 words.
Archimedes' Principle - 67 words.
10 Commandments - 179 words.
Gettysburg address - 286 words.
US Declaration of Independence - 1,300 words.
US Constitution with all 27 Amendments - 7,818 words.
EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words

Does Paul Barber moonlight at the EU?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I hope the "leave" campaign use as many of these examples of made up bollocks as possible, as they will destroy any case they may have.

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/cabbage.asp

Straight bananas anyone?

This. Boris is a key source of this nonsense as well....I have a feeling he will do more damage than good.

 

[Jim D]

I hope the "leave" campaign use as many of these examples of made up bollocks as possible, as they will destroy any case they may have.

http://www.snopes.com/language/document/cabbage.asp

Straight bananas anyone?

So there are NO EU regulations on the sale of cabbage? That's even worse. These cabbage-growers will be allowed to sell us any old weeds and nobody will be able to check if they are the correct size, weight or colour. What is the World coming to.

 

[brighton fella]

This. Boris is a key source of this nonsense as well....I have a feeling he will do more damage than good.

ark at hitler

 

[jgmcdee]

Unless they're really fecking worried about leaving the EU like I am?

But do they think that by speaking out they're going to sway people towards their cause? How many people will come to June 23rd and say to themselves "I'm not sure which way to vote but chairman X of company y said go this way so I'll do that"?

(I have to admit that someone on the News Quiz a few weeks ago probably had it right: the side that just shuts up and allows us to forget who is supporting it is most likely to win).

 

[Lincoln Imp]

i am not trying to persuade you at all. as if. i am just telling you how naive and idiotic it is to put trust in someone you know very little about.

for your own good at least. research the very c*nts that you are supporting rather than dismiss any claims made against them.

I wasn't talking about me. I was saying that the nature and tone of your recent posts are likely to persuade other people.

Although not necessarily in the direction you were hoping.


(Oh, and I will bite. Whilst I don't see my views on the EU in terms of supporting (or resisting) any particular individual, you clearly do and so I'd be grateful for a list of your top, say, half dozen demons and a note of the charges against them. Don't be shy.)

 

[Notters]

But do they think that by speaking out they're going to sway people towards their cause? How many people will come to June 23rd and say to themselves "I'm not sure which way to vote but chairman X of company y said go this way so I'll do that"?

(I have to admit that someone on the News Quiz a few weeks ago probably had it right: the side that just shuts up and allows us to forget who is supporting it is most likely to win).

To a certain extent I think you're right, but I think the fact that over 80 of the FTSE 100 companies is backing "Remain" seems quite impressive to me.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

To a certain extent I think you're right, but I think the fact that over 80 of the FTSE 100 companies is backing "Remain" seems quite impressive to me.

If is always difficult to prove why people DON'T do something but it is plausible - I put it no higher - that more than 80 would have signed had they not been concerned about the reaction of those who want to leave The sort of thing that happened in the Scottish referendum...

This is from the Telegraph: Business leaders and campaigners are being intimidated because of their pro-Union views, the Telegraph can disclose. Dozens of Scottish businesses have been subjected to bullying, threats and abuse after publicly questioning independence. Several company directors said that they had received messages threatening to attack their families or boycott their business. “My wife was upset by what people were saying on the internet [after they came out in support of the Union]," said Alistair Macmillan, a signatory to a pro-Union letter and managing director at White House Productions Ltd. “They were threatening to boycott the business, attack me, attack us”.

Brexit supporters will claim that they are quite different and of course most of them are. No denying that most of the name-calling aggression on this thread has come from that side though.

Yours sincerely

Lying Wet-Dreams Tory (Apparently)

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

To a certain extent I think you're right, but I think the fact that over 80 of the FTSE 100 companies is backing "Remain" seems quite impressive to me.

Shall I let you into a little secret? for many years I worked for a very large medical device manufacturer with subsidiary units accross the US and worldwide. One of my jobs was to exercise "influence" amongst key opinion leaders to encourage them to alter legislation to favour our products via the EU directives route.

This was a lengthy process but, when successful, the supplier who had the most compliant device would basically become extremely wealthy as all member states would be forced to source their goods. there was an awful lot of schmoozing and lobbying, expensive dinners, syposia and "fact finding" junkets to exotic climes.

This route, obviously, is not one open to SME manufacturers (65% of UK workforce) as they lack the financial clout to weild this kind of influence. it stinks to high heaven that megacorp can push unelected officials in Eurrope to into guaranteeing the usual suspects absolutely cream it.

 

[GT49er]

No denying that most of the name-calling aggression on this thread has come from that side though.

Actually there's plenty of denying - and I'll start it! Name calling aggression has come pretty much equally from both sides.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

To a certain extent I think you're right, but I think the fact that over 80 of the FTSE 100 companies is backing "Remain" seems quite impressive to me.

Is that a fact? I thought only 36 FTSE 100 Companies are backing the Remain campaign.

 

[sir albion]

To a certain extent I think you're right, but I think the fact that over 80 of the FTSE 100 companies is backing "Remain" seems quite impressive to me.

They will remain when we leave as well
People need to get away from the monetary side of things as our country is more important than a bunch of corporate company's who only have their profits to think about.They don't care about the working class people and people earning peanuts do they?
Virtually all small business's are not affected by us leaving the EU...These are as important as you'll get.

Thankfully people are realising it's about Great Britain as a whole a not a bunch of goons scaremongering because their profits could be under threat.

 

[brighton fella]

I wasn't talking about me. I was saying that the nature and tone of your recent posts are likely to persuade other people.

Although not necessarily in the direction you were hoping.


(Oh, and I will bite. Whilst I don't see my views on the EU in terms of supporting (or resisting) any particular individual, you clearly do and so I'd be grateful for a list of your top, say, half dozen demons and a note of the charges against them. Don't be shy.)

my tone has got nothing to do with it, people already know which way to vote come june 23rd regardless of what tone i may use you silly stupid crank.

why not look some of these scumbags up for yourself,rather than rely on some foul mouthed nutter to do it for you.? oh and just to put you straight there are no charge's against any of these individual's other that what they believe in and what they stand for but more importantly so what their long term agenda is.. probably not enough to worry the living sh*t out of a brain dead moron such as yourself but it is enough to the those of us who have something as apposed to nothing upstairs . ... .

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

my tone has got nothing to do with it, people already know which way to vote come june 23rd regardless of what tone i may use you silly stupid crank.

why not look some of these scumbags up for yourself,rather than rely on some foul mouthed nutter to do it for you.? oh and just to put you straight there are no charge's against any of these individual's other that what they believe in and what they stand for but more importantly so what their long term agenda is.. probably not enough to worry the living sh*t out of a brain dead moron such as yourself but it is enough to the those of us who have something as apposed to nothing upstairs . ... .

Losing an argument so resort to unpleasantries. Excellent work.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

my tone has got nothing to do with it, people already know which way to vote come june 23rd regardless of what tone i may use you silly stupid crank.

why not look some of these scumbags up for yourself,rather than rely on some foul mouthed nutter to do it for you.? oh and just to put you straight there are no charge's against any of these individual's other that what they believe in and what they stand for but more importantly so what their long term agenda is.. probably not enough to worry the living sh*t out of a brain dead moron such as yourself but it is enough to the those of us who have something as apposed to nothing upstairs . ... .

Wonderful stuff.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Actually there's plenty of denying - and I'll start it! Name calling aggression has come pretty much equally from both sides.

Post 779 is quite fun. If you can find a dozen similarly aggressive posts in this thread from those who want to stay IN the EU I'll match it.

Yours sincerely, Brain Dead Moron.