The ultimate REFERENDUM thread

[Blackadder]

I only know that my mother-in-law who lives in France can vote here (postal) nationally but can only vote locally in France. It got reduced recently from 20 years to 15 from your last electoral registration. Often people complaint because the paperwork is delayed and their votes are missed.

All this small details on moneys and benefits, I think the UK government sends out a lot in set benefits like winter fuel payments that compare to child benefit payments to registered parents from the UK that live else where in the Euro zone.

Staying in another county if we leave would be down to what Visa requirements/rules that would then have to be agreed and negotiated - but I imagine they could lose any medical benefits and be liable for charges and taxes that may well be currently free.

Thanks

 

[JC Footy Genius]

1) And we won't after Brexit. Norway and Switzerland have to accept the free movement of people for access to the market. They also pay for the privilege - what happened to taxation without representation?

2) I think immigration will continue to rise inside or out.

3) There is a lot of EU law we have to comply with, particularly relating to employment law. But outside we will still be subject to this regulation but have no influence over it. It is true that European legislation has primacy over national legislation as I understand as part of the 1975 entry. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-eu-sovereignty-michael-fallon-a6888696.html - Let's see if this sovereignty act comes to anything.

4) we can't block a process that we're not a part of. We will have special status, Europe can follow a path of closer union if it wants to. Either way we're outside of that arrangement while retaining the benefits. I'd rather have some say over this than none.

5) We are chained to each other either way. Europe is 45% of our exports so it is in our interest to help the EU get its act together. How can we do this? By bolstering the EU states who follow the rules, like Germany, Denmark or the Netherlands. This is in our interest and if we leave we diminish the northern Europeans who have similar outlooks on trade and capitalism.

6) As far as I can see most refugees will be ejected when possible. Economic migrants have no right to be here and should be swiftly deported. This is theory rather than practice but it looks suspiciously like Outer scaremongering (!)

1.) We are not Norway or Switzerland. Apparently it is possible to negotiate trade deals without surrendering control of your borders.

2.) Maybe, maybe not, but we only have full control of our borders if we leave.

3.) Indeed European legislation has primacy over national legislation. Yes outside we would still be subject to adhering to some regulations if we wanted access to the EU market. The good news is we already comply with them, simplifying any trade deal negotiations. Most are likely to be pretty universal and sensible but we have the choice to challenge and renegotiate where we find them incompatible with our national interests. Negotiation is a two way street after all.

4.) Lets see all the exemptions we get in upcoming treaties as the majority continue to ever closer union shall we? Considering all the momentous changes and protections Cameron secured on pain of Brexit I'm sure future UK governments will find these future negotiations a walk in the park. We are still on the same path but someone changed the signpost.

5.) We can help the EU by not continually dragging our heals looking for opt outs/different pathways. It will either be a roaring success or disintegrate my money is on the latter. A strong successful, confident, dynamic, independent UK will still be a good friend and significant trading partner for our European partners.

6.) Forcibly deporting a majority of 1 million plus people is never going to happen. Holding camps and herding them on trains towards the exit door might stir up some unpleasant memories.

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Staying in another county if we leave would be down to what Visa requirements/rules that would then have to be agreed and negotiated - but I imagine they could lose any medical benefits and be liable for charges and taxes that may well be currently free.

They COULD but then the UK could rescind any reciprocal benefits enjoyed by their nationals working in the UK so it's unlikely.

The time spent dismantling all the current agreements would be onerous. Besides the idea of "free" healthcare on the continent is highly dubious. The NHS almost certainly spends more treating continentals than we recoup.

 

[Trufflehound]

It got reduced recently from 20 years to 15 from your last electoral registration. .

Can't be that recently. It was already 15 years when I tried to register to vote in the 2010 general election and got told to f**k off for that reason.

According to the Tory election manifesto the 15-year rule will be scrapped and I will get my vote back. But not until after the referendum, so I get to be screwed again. Whoop-dee-do.

 

[Triggaaar]

1) And we won't after Brexit. Norway and Switzerland have to accept the free movement of people for access to the market.

People from other parts of the EU can come and live here forever, they can't do the same in Switzerland, they just get a few months to find work.

2) I think immigration will continue to rise inside or out.

Maybe, but we'll have more control over it if we leave.

3) There is a lot of EU law we have to comply with, particularly relating to employment law. But outside we will still be subject to this regulation but have no influence over it.

We appear to have virtually no influence over the laws as it stands, and of course we will have more control over laws if we leave, you're being disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

4) we can't block a process that we're not a part of. We will have special status

Are you being serious? The 'special status' is a flattering joke. We're no more special than the likes of France or Germany. We haven't been able to block closer political union while we've been in the EU, and we won't need to block it if we leave.

5) We are chained to each other either way. Europe is 45% of our exports so it is in our interest to help the EU get its act together.

But as JC said, we'll be more protected from problems in the EU if we deal more with the growing economies outside of Europe.

6) As far as I can see most refugees will be ejected when possible. Economic migrants have no right to be here and should be swiftly deported. This is theory rather than practice

Of course that is theory, but we all know full well it's not going to work. If a few million people turn up in the EU saying they're escaping ISIS or their govenment, how the hell are we going to identify who's telling the truth? Of course it's impossible, and there will be plenty of economic migrants heading to our shores.

 

[cunning fergus]

I think you'll find Corbyn was talking about TTIP this very weekend.

You'll also find that the European Commission has stated that public services like the NHS are not to be included in TTIP.

As TTIP negotiations are still ongoing, they are an unknown. If we were to end up out of the EU we'd then have to negotiate our own trade agreements with the USA. I wonder how far we'd hang onto the trade principles we hold so dear when faced with the need to secure a free trade agreement ASAP?

Corbyn’s rhetoric has mellowed markedly with regard to his opposition to the EU and TTIP since he became leader.

In Wales this weekend I know he said he wanted to stay in the EU and also that he wanted to halt EU trade agreements that demand privatised public services, nothing explicit about TTIP.

I thought this was odd because as Corbyn knows, if he wanted to halt the EU’s plans to privatise public services then the UK would have to change the EU’s own competition rules which demand privatisation of state concerns. It's why Labour never argued hard about the re-nationalisation of the Royal Mail and utilities, and why Corbyn has gone quiet about re-instituting clause 4. Jezza has ceased to be a socialist catapillar, he is morphing into a social democrat Blairite sh*thouse.

Before he was Labour leader he called vigerously for TTIP’s rejection (along with McDonnell) not only in terms of its well publicised threat to the NHS and public services, I believed his view then that it would have an effect because the NHS trade unions are also against it, I don’t believe you that it won’t.

http://think-left.org/2015/07/12/jeremy-corbyn-speaks-against-ttip-at-durham-miners-gala/

The final point you make is the jambon in the baguette though, because if we were out of the EU trade negotiations like TTIP would be conducted under the control of our elected politicians as oppose to a group of unelected bureaucrats in a unelected Governmental executive. If this was to happen there would be the requisite level of transparency so we would know what was at stake much more importantly hold these elected politicians to account if we disagreed with their actions.

How do we vote out the EU Commission?

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Of course that is theory, but we all know full well it's not going to work. If a few million people turn up in the EU saying they're escaping ISIS or their govenment, how the hell are we going to identify who's telling the truth? Of course it's impossible, and there will be plenty of economic migrants heading to our shores.

Oddly enough I was listening to a BBC journalist in zeebrugge just now talking to the mayor. He said that, until recently, his town saw 200 migrants or so a month arriving to sneak on a ferry to Hull...it's now 200 a WEEK dossing all over town. He was very clear that these are mostly Iranian men who do not wish to seek asylum but have left Germany as there are "too many" competitors there and since all the sex attacks they don't feel so loved so they're trying to get into the UK.

Leaving the EU would make little difference in this regard although, I suppose, we could just put them on the next ferry back to Belgium. I don't think such a move would endear us to our neighbours...does anyone?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

[tweet]701760120393490432[/tweet]

 

[Hamilton]

Corbyn’s rhetoric has mellowed markedly with regard to his opposition to the EU and TTIP since he became leader.

In Wales this weekend I know he said he wanted to stay in the EU and also that he wanted to halt EU trade agreements that demand privatised public services, nothing explicit about TTIP.

I thought this was odd because as Corbyn knows, if he wanted to halt the EU’s plans to privatise public services then the UK would have to change the EU’s own competition rules which demand privatisation of state concerns. It's why Labour never argued hard about the re-nationalisation of the Royal Mail and utilities, and why Corbyn has gone quiet about re-instituting clause 4. Jezza has ceased to be a socialist catapillar, he is morphing into a social democrat Blairite sh*thouse.

Before he was Labour leader he called vigerously for TTIP’s rejection (along with McDonnell) not only in terms of its well publicised threat to the NHS and public services, I believed his view then that it would have an effect because the NHS trade unions are also against it, I don’t believe you that it won’t.

http://think-left.org/2015/07/12/jeremy-corbyn-speaks-against-ttip-at-durham-miners-gala/

The final point you make is the jambon in the baguette though, because if we were out of the EU trade negotiations like TTIP would be conducted under the control of our elected politicians as oppose to a group of unelected bureaucrats in a unelected Governmental executive. If this was to happen there would be the requisite level of transparency so we would know what was at stake much more importantly hold these elected politicians to account if we disagreed with their actions.

How do we vote out the EU Commission?

Just to reiterate, the EC has enshrined certain rights into TTIP negotiations that protect the way in which member states provide health services. That includes protection for public services like the NHS.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

Thanks

According to someone doing a question and answer today, under some Vienna agreement all the European countries have signed up to independently - anyone who has moved to another european country has the rights to stay at the moment they arrived. it would only affect people who moved after any vote to leave the EU

 

[cunning fergus]

Just to reiterate, the EC has enshrined certain rights into TTIP negotiations that protect the way in which member states provide health services. That includes protection for public services like the NHS.

I know, the thing is I trust the unions and not the Government and certainly not the unelected EC that is negotiating this deal far from public gaze...........as stated in the Guardian article today.

"Unite believes the government has been keeping Britain in the dark over the impact of the deal and argues the NHS should be excluded from the trade deal. The government dismissed the idea that TTIP poses a threat as “irresponsible and false”.

You think that this is all OK, well many disagree.

http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/new...arliament-after-dirty-tricks-president-schulz

That is the thing with you pro EU tories, there is literally no cost too high for the UK and its people to make sure we stay in the capitalist circus that is the EU.

 

[Hamilton]

I know, the thing is I trust the unions and not the Government and certainly not the unelected EC that is negotiating this deal far from public gaze...........as stated in the Guardian article today.

"Unite believes the government has been keeping Britain in the dark over the impact of the deal and argues the NHS should be excluded from the trade deal. The government dismissed the idea that TTIP poses a threat as “irresponsible and false”.

You think that this is all OK, well many disagree.

http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/new...arliament-after-dirty-tricks-president-schulz

That is the thing with you pro EU tories, there is literally no cost too high for the UK and its people to make sure we stay in the capitalist circus that is the EU.

That is the problem with you 'Leave' zealots - you're prone to jump to very wrong conclusions.

The EU is not perfect. That does not mean we should leave.

 

[neilbard]

Who are you

 

[cunning fergus]

Just to reiterate, the EC has enshrined certain rights into TTIP negotiations that protect the way in which member states provide health services. That includes protection for public services like the NHS.

I meant to add the quote from Nick Dearden of Global Justice that encapsulates the basis of how the EU works.....

“The only reason that MEPs are still trying so desperately to push this through is because of the enormously powerful corporate lobby machine in Brussels. TTIP is fundamentally an issue of people and democracy versus encroaching corporate power.”

I know you disagree, you think the EU can be trusted.

 

[KingstonSeagull]

What are we going to buy cars with

You will probably find they will be cheaper if we leave... I was shocked how cheap German cars were in the United States...

 

[cunning fergus]

That is the problem with you 'Leave' zealots - you're prone to jump to very wrong conclusions.

The EU is not perfect. That does not mean we should leave.

It is not perfect..............but that is to understate the damage it can cause especially on really important issues like TTIP, a year ago Corbyn said:

“why is there secrecy surrounding the negotiations? Is it because there are ante-rooms on either side of the Atlantic stuffed full of highly effective corporate lobbyists doing their best to develop their own interests? Should we not instead be demanding a free trade agreement that narrows the gap between the rich and the poor, that protects the advance of public services such as the national health service, that fundamentally protects food production, and that ensures that the best standards become the universal standards, rather than engaging in a race to the bottom that results in the worst standards becoming the norm on both sides of the Atlantic?”

You would have us believe that this position has changed, it NOT about corprate interests selling out the workers, or a grab on the NHS.

I would rather trust Gus Fagan than you tory boy.............he being active in Keep Our NHS Public, a senior lecturer in international relations at London Metropolitan University. He edited Labour Focus on Eastern Europe and is on the editorial board of Debate: Journal of Contemporary Central and Eastern Europe

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/gus-fagan/lipstick-on-ttip-pig

or John Hilary Director from the War on Want.......

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/john-hilary/on-ttip-and-nhs-they-are-trying-to-bamboozle-us

Yes, I know, we can trust the EU.

 

[Hamilton]

It is not perfect..............but that is to understate the damage it can cause especially on really important issues like TTIP, a year ago Corbyn said:

“why is there secrecy surrounding the negotiations? Is it because there are ante-rooms on either side of the Atlantic stuffed full of highly effective corporate lobbyists doing their best to develop their own interests? Should we not instead be demanding a free trade agreement that narrows the gap between the rich and the poor, that protects the advance of public services such as the national health service, that fundamentally protects food production, and that ensures that the best standards become the universal standards, rather than engaging in a race to the bottom that results in the worst standards becoming the norm on both sides of the Atlantic?”

You would have us believe that this position has changed, it NOT about corprate interests selling out the workers, or a grab on the NHS.

I would rather trust Gus Fagan than you tory boy.............he being active in Keep Our NHS Public, a senior lecturer in international relations at London Metropolitan University. He edited Labour Focus on Eastern Europe and is on the editorial board of Debate: Journal of Contemporary Central and Eastern Europe

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/gus-fagan/lipstick-on-ttip-pig

or John Hilary Director from the War on Want.......

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ournhs/john-hilary/on-ttip-and-nhs-they-are-trying-to-bamboozle-us

Yes, I know, we can trust the EU.

As I said. You're resorting to false conclusions and personalisation, which is often a sign that you feel you've lost a grip of the argument.

For every google link you provide an opposing view can be found.

You underestimate the damage of leaving the EU.

 

[Stat Brother]

5-Live are currently doing an independent 'fact check' phone in.

 

[melias shoes]

Fact is the in campaign is all based around money and corporate buffoons who only care about themselves and their finances....while the out campaign is about what's important to be British and to control and run our own country as we so wish.

Correct and who put his head above the parapet today? Yep the self serving Nick Clegg. That bloke only cares about getting himself on the gravy train.

 

[sir albion]

I meant to add the quote from Nick Dearden of Global Justice that encapsulates the basis of how the EU works.....

“The only reason that MEPs are still trying so desperately to push this through is because of the enormously powerful corporate lobby machine in Brussels. TTIP is fundamentally an issue of people and democracy versus encroaching corporate power.”

I know you disagree, you think the EU can be trusted.

You can just picture all the global munchkins slipping nifty 50's in back pockets of politicians as they become super desperate and this referendum would be a win for the people and we don't get these opportunities to often.