Jeremy Corbyn's OK Christmas Message.

[beorhthelm]

Oh dear - replying on what we read in Conservative Central Office propaganda sheets like the Telegraph are we?

'fraid not, witnessed the comments myself on the Newsnight interview with McMahon. unlike the media i always expected a comfortable win there for Labour, no daft UKIP nonsense.

 

[Fungus]

Well said JC, doesn't sound too controversial to me.

 

[abc]

Most of those assets are churches halls and clergy houses. Why do you object to the CofE having these assets?

Sorry but that is not correct. The vast majority of their assets (see the 2014-15 accounts which are available on line) are in commercial and retail property (e.g. they own vast tracts of some of the best real estate in London), in their estates (they are the second largest rural landowners in the country) and in investment funds. They own fewer and fewer clergy houses or church halls as they have sold many off (for reinvestment) and anyway these are of minimal value as a proportion of their overall wealth. They are continually adding to their asset value by annually selling off large areas across the UK for housing development. They have hundreds of farming tenants and have a disreputable reputation as a landlord that forces sky high rents upon their tenants regardless of an ability to pay.

But I don't object to the principal of the Church owning assets. However I do object to their status as a charity which give them favourable tax status and I do object to an organisation with £5.6 billion of assets claiming the moral high ground when it comes to discussing poverty.

 

[Tommy Tradlles]

Sorry but that is not correct. The vast majority of their assets (see the 2014-15 accounts which are available on line) are in commercial and retail property (e.g. they own vast tracts of some of the best real estate in London), in their estates (they are the second largest rural landowners in the country) and in investment funds. They own fewer and fewer clergy houses or church halls as they have sold many off (for reinvestment) and anyway these are of minimal value as a proportion of their overall wealth. They are continually adding to their asset value by annually selling off large areas across the UK for housing development. They have hundreds of farming tenants and have a disreputable reputation as a landlord that forces sky high rents upon their tenants regardless of an ability to pay.

But I don't object to the principal of the Church owning assets. However I do object to their status as a charity which give them favourable tax status and I do object to an organisation with £5.6 billion of assets claiming the moral high ground when it comes to discussing poverty.

Fair enough the CofE does have a lot of inherited property. However, you were rather sweeping in your criticism when you said "I find the political organisations that make up a ' Religion' utterly hypocritical.". As a Parish Priest myself, I can assure you that my parish lives 100% on what my parishioners donate and quite a bit of it goes charitable causes. I guess I ought to be used to being thought of as a hypocrite.

 

[Biscuit]

Fair enough the CofE does have a lot of inherited property. However, you were rather sweeping in your criticism when you said "I find the political organisations that make up a ' Religion' utterly hypocritical.". As a Parish Priest myself, I can assure you that my parish lives 100% on what my parishioners donate and quite a bit of it goes charitable causes. I guess I ought to be used to being thought of as a hypocrite.

Out of interest - and a genuine question - If a Church got a hole in the roof that needed fixing, and it was not covered by the insurance, would the Church go cap in have to the parishioners? If so, are you not a little peeved at that considering how wealthy the CofE is?

 

[Tommy Tradlles]

Out of interest - and a genuine question - If a Church got a hole in the roof that needed fixing, and it was not covered by the insurance, would the Church go cap in have to the parishioners? If so, are you not a little peeved at that considering how wealthy the CofE is?

As with any other organisation, we have to fund all our building work and repairs, but of course we take out insurance. I am not sure why I should be envious of the CofE.

 

[London Irish]

'fraid not, witnessed the comments myself on the Newsnight interview with McMahon. unlike the media i always expected a comfortable win there for Labour, no daft UKIP nonsense.

That explains why you missed the many positive references to Corbyn by McMahon if you were just relying on one TV interview.

It was a big win for Labour because all parts of the party stayed disciplined behind Jeremy, led by McMahon. Clear lesson for everyone there which will be hammered home in all parts of the Labour party in years to come

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Jesus was definitely a socialist in view of what he said about poverty, possessions, society etc. I would say with some certainty that Jesus was NOT a conservative. That's for damnned sure.

 

[1066familyman]

I agree. I am a Christian too, David, and though I am centre right leaning, I feel it is entirely right for this government to be brought up short when it gets things wrong. For example, my faith informs my opposition to the tax credit cuts, as well as the fact that to me to penalise those in work isn't a Tory thing to do. I probably disagree with Jeremy Corbyn on nearly everything apart from rail renationalisation, but I wonder if his uncompromising sticking to principles has kept the government on its toes more than a more moderate Labour leader would have done.

I'm always curious how a Christian can also describe themselves as politically right wing. The two just don't sit well together to me.

 

[BLOCK F]

Jesus was definitely a socialist in view of what he said about poverty, possessions, society etc. I would say with some certainty that Jesus was NOT a conservative. That's for damnned sure.

Yes, and if you are a believer, apparently Jesus rose from the dead.
Not sure the Labour Party will,unless Corbyn is ditched .
I am neither a believer nor a Socialist.

 

[topbanana36]

Anybody who knows the history of Moses mordeci Marx levy will know that his one aim was to destroy the teachings of Jesus Christ. He despised Christianity. Corbyn once again showing what a clueless £&@* he is!

 

[BLOCK F]

I'm always curious how a Christian can also describe themselves as politically right wing. The two just don't sit well together to me.

Well, Familyman, there is right wing and Right Wing.
Alternatively, you may just be a moral high ground hugging smug leftie who is unable to comprehend how anyone else could possibly be as righteous, goodly and Christian, as perhaps you are, and not hold the same political views.
I hope you are not like that!

 

[beorhthelm]

I'm always curious how a Christian can also describe themselves as politically right wing. The two just don't sit well together to me.

because you have formed, or been given, a misguided view of what the right wing of politics is about? or for that matter what certain parts of Christianity are about. there's a lot of scope for cross over between different political and religious views, as very well outlined in the quote gordonchas gave in post 20

 

[Soulman]

Crikey Corbyn in less than 4 pages has gone from making a fairly ordinary speech to being compared to and the equal of Jesus.
Next speech should put him joint top with God and then to infinity and beyond.

 

[abc]

Fair enough the CofE does have a lot of inherited property. However, you were rather sweeping in your criticism when you said "I find the political organisations that make up a ' Religion' utterly hypocritical.". As a Parish Priest myself, I can assure you that my parish lives 100% on what my parishioners donate and quite a bit of it goes charitable causes. I guess I ought to be used to being thought of as a hypocrite.

My apologies if my posts implied that I consider Parish Priests hypocritical. May I try and explain my words better?

Having been brought up as a Christian with Sunday school etc, I then struggled with the concept as a teenager. Pretty normal for that stage in life I suspect but my mental struggles continued into adult life. I couldn't square the basic values of Jesus (which less face it, whether you believe him or nor are pretty good standards to live by) with the actions or words of some sections or individuals in 'The Church'.

I had an involvement in a community project that required us dealing with the Church Commissioners. They were clear that they had no interest in helping the community, only maximising a commercial return. The more I have learned about them since, the more I am appalled by their avarice and arrogance.

Over the years the attitude towards (by some in 'The Church') the ordination of women priests and homosexuality and so on has always worried me (I don't see the problem with either by the way). From time to time Church Leaders got too involved for my liking in politics yet they were not elected to do so. Then of course we have the continuous conflict and bloodshed throughout time from wars fought in the name of 'religion'.

So I stayed away from Church for years. Then someone with a very strong faith explained to me how they dealt with much the same 'struggle'. Faith, they said, is your personal relationship and belief in God. Religion is the politics of humans who have their agendas over and above 'faith' . In other words you can have faith and you can believe in your God and be a Christian without having to subscribe to Religion.

I appreciate that this is probably full of holes as a theological argument but it was a revelation to me. I am still exploring my faith but I am no longer rejecting it or fighting it.

In my personal assessment therefore, Parish Priests are men or women 'of faith' and the same for your parishioners. The Church Commissioners are the ruthless and mammonian political and financial wing of the Church and sadly (IMHO) some of the senior Church Members (Synod etc) are in the same boat. Any organisation with assets of £5.6 Billion and an annual income measured in similar terms could and should behave in a Christian manner. The people of 'faith' (such as your parishioners) do everything they can to support and help those in need but those running 'The Religion' or 'Politics' do not yet they can afford to do the most.

I am sure I haven't explained this well and it is only a personal perspective. But I assure you I meant no criticism towards you and again my apologies if it seemed so.

 

[The Antikythera Mechanism]

I'm always curious how a Christian can also describe themselves as politically right wing. The two just don't sit well together to me.

Like the Nazi loving Catholic church at the end of WW2, running scared of the Godless USSR, and giving German war criminals safe passage out of Europe.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Most of those assets are churches halls and clergy houses. Why do you object to the CofE having these assets?

This is a reasonable point. My brother in law was a rural dean in Lincolnshire and his patch included any number of beautiful churches, one or two Grade 1 listed. The cost of keeping them going was huge and often out of all proportion to the use to which they are put. There is nothing the church would rather do than give many of these buildings away. But they can't. They keep them as best as they can whilst wishing the money could be spent on community activities that are closer to their principles. But they can't. Indeed, it would be illegal to neglect them.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Crikey Corbyn in less than 4 pages has gone from making a fairly ordinary speech to being compared to and the equal of Jesus.
Next speech should put him joint top with God and then to infinity and beyond.

lol.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I'm always curious how a Christian can also describe themselves as politically right wing. The two just don't sit well together to me.

And presumably, by this token, how an anti-Christian can describe himself as left wing.

 

[Tommy Tradlles]

My apologies if my posts implied that I consider Parish Priests hypocritical. May I try and explain my words better?

Having been brought up as a Christian with Sunday school etc, I then struggled with the concept as a teenager. Pretty normal for that stage in life I suspect but my mental struggles continued into adult life. I couldn't square the basic values of Jesus (which less face it, whether you believe him or nor are pretty good standards to live by) with the actions or words of some sections or individuals in 'The Church'.

I had an involvement in a community project that required us dealing with the Church Commissioners. They were clear that they had no interest in helping the community, only maximising a commercial return. The more I have learned about them since, the more I am appalled by their avarice and arrogance.

Over the years the attitude towards (by some in 'The Church') the ordination of women priests and homosexuality and so on has always worried me (I don't see the problem with either by the way). From time to time Church Leaders got too involved for my liking in politics yet they were not elected to do so. Then of course we have the continuous conflict and bloodshed throughout time from wars fought in the name of 'religion'.

So I stayed away from Church for years. Then someone with a very strong faith explained to me how they dealt with much the same 'struggle'. Faith, they said, is your personal relationship and belief in God. Religion is the politics of humans who have their agendas over and above 'faith' . In other words you can have faith and you can believe in your God and be a Christian without having to subscribe to Religion.

I appreciate that this is probably full of holes as a theological argument but it was a revelation to me. I am still exploring my faith but I am no longer rejecting it or fighting it.

In my personal assessment therefore, Parish Priests are men or women 'of faith' and the same for your parishioners. The Church Commissioners are the ruthless and mammonian political and financial wing of the Church and sadly (IMHO) some of the senior Church Members (Synod etc) are in the same boat. Any organisation with assets of £5.6 Billion and an annual income measured in similar terms could and should behave in a Christian manner. The people of 'faith' (such as your parishioners) do everything they can to support and help those in need but those running 'The Religion' or 'Politics' do not yet they can afford to do the most.

I am sure I haven't explained this well and it is only a personal perspective. But I assure you I meant no criticism towards you and again my apologies if it seemed so.

Thank you for your apology. I wasn't seeking one but it is appreciated. I understand your concerns about the Church Commissioners though I have no knowledge about your particular case. My perspective is that religion and faith go together after all Christ founded the Church.

As for Jeremy Corbyn's speech. I think he makes as good point. Christians should welcome refugees as Our Lord was one. The holy family had to seek refuge in Egypt. However, I suspect a lot of people may not be that welcoming to refugees if it impacts on them. There as been a successful local campaign to stop a Asylum Seekers hostel being set in the area. One of my parishioners was very against it even though we have been praying for refugees for the past two months. I appreciated the concern of locals but it was disappointing. These issues often show the limits of our charity