Pretty pink fairy
Banned
- Jan 30, 2008
- 31,981
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Cameron v Miliband v Clegg: the official Question Time match thread
- Thread starter Bozza
- Start date
But what makes you so sure? This is Farage's specialty, he's built his career on this; I'm sure he can come up with a bunch of convenient tropes and bash 'the establishment'. Miliband & Cameron have far less charisma and will probably slip up in some sly traps set by Farage. On balance, I'd predict the stay in vote would just win, but it would be uncomfortably close, just like the Scottish independence vote was uncomfortably close. I wouldn't want to risk it.
Raleigh Chopper
New member
And more children living in poverty than ever before.
People queuing up at food banks because they have to make a decision whether to heat the house or feed the kids.
Still, as long as you get to Birmingham 20 minutes faster on your multi billion HS2.
Mellor 3 Ward 4
Well-known member
Farage won't win his seat,,and will resign. Referendum will be a walk in the park.
Is the UK still sending children down coal mines to support the 'glorious' days of the empire or am I missing something?
Prince Monolulu
Everything in Moderation
- Jan 3, 2012
- 16,621
I aagree up to a point, so I am not that sure. I did start with the word "if".
But I think it would come clear that we would risk losing loads of business etc if we pulled out. Whatever Mr Farage says, companies like Honda and Nissan built their operations here partly because we are in Europe and it would give them better access to European markets. Obviously it is not easy to move a Car Production plant, but in the long-term, I think they would. And there are a lot of other "intelligence-based" operaations where it would be far easier to move an European HQ to Paris, say, so that it would be within the European Zone rather than outside it. His idea of building a good trading relationship might be a pipe-dream. We need them more than they need us.
But there are plenty of people whose ears and brains would be closed to any decent argument.
Raleigh Chopper
New member
Not as far as I am aware mainly due to not having many coal mines anymore.
But we do have children in poverty and more people using food banks.
You may not care about them but I do and I would rather we sorted that problem out before spunking all that money on a railway line.
I am all for infrastructure but not ahead of more pressing problems.
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
Farage is slippery as an eel.
If he resigns, he'll no doubt 'be persuaded' to restand for the UKIP leadership due to 'popular demand'.
Summer's coming.
Pretty pink fairy
Banned
- Jan 30, 2008
- 31,981
lap dog , as the chap in the audience said what will he be doing for a job next week?
regards
DR
Diego Napier
Well-known member
- Mar 27, 2010
- 4,416
Amazingly selective Mr Ant/Termite; try another selection from the Huffington Post:
"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on" - Winston Churchill
As a Conservative I have no pleasure in exposing David Cameron's deficit claims. However, as long as the party continues to talk down the economy via the blame game, confidence will not be given an opportunity to return. For it is an undeniable and inescapable economic fact: without confidence and certainty there can be no real growth.
Below are the three deficit claims - the mess. The evidence comes from the IMF, OECD, OBR, HM Treasury, ONS and even George Osborne. The claims put into context are:
CLAIM 1
The last government left the biggest debt in the developed world.
After continuously stating the UK had the biggest debt in the world George Osborne admits to the Treasury Select Committee that he did not know the UK had the lowest debt in the G7? Watch: Also, confirmed by the OECD Those who use cash terms (instead of percentages) do so to scare, mislead and give half the story.
Its common sense, in cash terms a millionaire's debt would be greater than most people. Therefore, the UK would have a higher debt and deficit than most countries because, we are the sixth largest economy. Hence, its laughable to compare UK's debt and deficit with Tuvalu's who only have a GDP/Income of £24 million whilst, the UK's income is £1.7 Trillion.
Finally, Labour in 1997 inherited a debt of 42% of GDP. By the start of the global banking crises 2008 the debt had fallen to 35% - a near 22% reduction page 6 ONSSurprisingly, a debt of 42% was not seen as a major problem and yet at 35% the sky was falling down?
CLAIM 2
Labour created the biggest deficit in the developed world by overspending.
Firstly, the much banded about 2010 deficit of over 11% is false. This is the PSNB (total borrowings) and not the actual budget deficit which was -7.7% - OBR Economic and Fiscal Outlook March 2012 page 19 table 1.2
Secondly, in 1997 Labour inherited a deficit of 3.9% of GDP (not a balanced budget ) and by 2008 it had fallen to 2.1% - a reduction of a near 50% - Impressive! Hence, it's implausible and ludicrous to claim there was overspending. The deficit was then exacerbated by the global banking crises after 2008. See HM Treasury. Note, the 1994 deficit of near 8% haaaaaah!
Thirdly, the IMF have also concluded the same. They reveal the UK experienced an increase in the deficit as result of a large loss in output/GDP caused by the global banking crisis and not even as result of the bank bailouts, fiscal stimulus and bringing forward of capital spending. It's basic economics: when output falls the deficit increases.
Finally, the large loss in output occurred because the UK like the US have the biggest financial centres and as this was a global banking crises we suffered the most. Hence, the UK had the 2nd highest deficit in the G7 (Not The World) after the US and not as a result of overspending prior to and after 2008- as the IMF concur.
CLAIM 3
Our borrowing costs are low because the markets have confidence in George Osborne's austerity plan and without it the UK will end up like Greece.
Yes, the markets have confidence in our austerity plan and that's why PIMCO the worlds largest bond holder have been warning against buying UK debt.
The real reason why our borrowing costs have fallen and remained low since 2008 is because, savings have increased. As a result, the demand and price for bonds have increased and as there is inverse relationship between the price of bonds and its yield (interest rate) the rates have fallen. Also, the markets expect the economy to remain stagnate. Which means the price for bonds will remain high and hence, our borrowing costs will also remain low.
Secondly, the UK is considered a safe heaven because, investors are reassured the Bank of England will buy up bonds in an event of any sell off - which increases the price of bonds and reduces the effective rate. Note, how rates fell across the EU recently when the ECB announced its bond buying program. Thirdly, because, we are not in the Euro we can devalue our currency to increase exports. Moreover, UK bonds are attractive because, we haven't defaulted on its debt for over 300 years.
David Cameron would like people to believe the markets lend in the same way as retail banks lend to you and I.
Overall, when the facts and figures are put into context these juvenile deficit narratives and sound bites ("mere words and no evidence") simply fail to stand up to the actual facts. The deficit myth is the grosses lie ever enforced upon the people and it has been sold by exploiting people's economic illiteracy.
So, David Cameron when are you going to apologise?
Cameron is playing the blame game to depress confidence and growth to justify austerity. Secondly, to use austerity as justification for a smaller state to gain lower taxes. Thirdly, to paint Labour as a party that can not be trusted with the country's finances again. Therefore, we Conservatives will win a second term because, people vote out of fear. The latter strategy worked the last time in office (18 years) and will work again because, in the end, elections are won and lost on economic credibility. Hence, as people believe Labour created the mess they won't be trusted again.
Finally, as the truth is the greatest enemy of the a lie I urge you to share this on Facebook, Twitter, blogs, text and email etc etc. So the truth can be discovered by all.
www.twitter.com/Ramesh1Patel
Finally, have no doubt, people have been mislead by the use of the following strategy:
"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it" Joseph Goebbels
Hampster Gull
New member
- Dec 22, 2010
- 13,462
Great showing by Cameron. Called it as it is. Ed was poor, bot apolgising for the economic mess he left us in. Only going one way
Probably the easy winner.
I'm not ignorant to the fact that there are many-many individuals and families that are suffering in UK - that may also rely on food banks to get by. I see the only way for a country to survive and move on from struggle is to have a healthy economy (that can fund progressive social benefits), low unemployment levels and a system that supports innovation/entrepreneurship. The UK has less spending on r&d than Japan and yet we still produce the most highly cited research papers after the USA. And yet we are still a country that takes a billion years to decide if we need to build another runway at Heathrow or Gatwick. A country of nimby supporters.
Ed himself didn't leave us in a mess.
There seems to be so little acceptance of the state of the Global economy when Labour were in despite the banking and US sub-prime mortgage fiasco. The Tories have hammered them on this over and over again.
But wait. Having bigged up their own economic prowess, the Tories on the announcement of the recent growth figures having halved suddenly point to the US economy as the cause.
ROSM
Well-known member
Sadly we live in a society where half truths become fact. The 'financial mess' was entirely as a result of the credit crunch, bank meltdown. If the then government hadn't bailed out rbs, Lloyds, etc etc then we would have been in a much worse place.
That's the fact whether you like it or not. If Milliband had apologised it would have put the jitters up the financial markets and analysts who know the real story. He is correct, we were an economy too reliant on the financial sector
Fwiw, I think Itvwas Cameron's best performance of this campaign. He was misleading, wrong and downright deceitful, but as a performance It was good
For ed m, It was his worst. Too honest by far