Hillian1
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Jury (12 different people) 12- Evans 0.
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Ched Evans
- Thread starter Brighton TID
- Start date
Jury (12 different people) 12- Evans 0.
drew
Drew
Welcome back.
guildford 4 case has no relevance.
Interesting to look at stats on appeals. Of c25,000 cases pa heard in the criminal court, around 200 appeals were allowed in 2011. Don't know how many of these were successful but even if it was all of them, it's less than 1%, indicating a pretty good success rate for decisions by jury. The odd miscarriage doesn't make this one of them. Would be fascinating to know on what basis the jury were sure of his guilt but we never will.
I do, though, completely get his refusal to publicly apologise or show remorse (for rape, not his general behaviour) if he believes he's not guilty - he has to take that stance otherwise he's admitting guilt, but as things stand, he's guilty and should be treated as such, which certainly in my book means being allowed nowhere near a football club.
Interesting to look at stats on appeals. Of c25,000 cases pa heard in the criminal court, around 200 appeals were allowed in 2011. Don't know how many of these were successful but even if it was all of them, it's less than 1%, indicating a pretty good success rate for decisions by jury. The odd miscarriage doesn't make this one of them. Would be fascinating to know on what basis the jury were sure of his guilt but we never will.
I do, though, completely get his refusal to publicly apologise or show remorse (for rape, not his general behaviour) if he believes he's not guilty - he has to take that stance otherwise he's admitting guilt, but as things stand, he's guilty and should be treated as such, which certainly in my book means being allowed nowhere near a football club.
drew
Drew
Have to agree with this.
Yoda
English & European
I keep seeing this posted, yet has anyone else seen the CCTV footage of the hotel from when she arrived with Clayton?
If she was incapable of giving consent because she was so drunk, she wouldn't have been able to walk back outside, bend over and picked her pizza (still in box) off the floor and back in completely unaided and in a straight line. As the video shows.
I just showed the video to my girlfriend who has been on a jury for an alleged rape and she just laughed at it.
You are certainly clueless, only two verdicts in a trial (apart from one not reached).Guilty beyond reasonable doubt or not guilty where you have doubt, that would put you in the not guilty as you clearly have doubt. Which in turn makes you think he is not guilty so where have I misrepresented you? This case was looked at by two judges, are you suggesting that they put an emotional spin on it. You will keep on arguing and still not look at the responsibility Evans has to take for this. He put himself in this position. Of course emotion will come into it. He was found guilty of what happened in the hotel room. What part of any of it shows him in a good light.
Rape is an under reported crime and you can see why women find it hard to come forward.
So someone lied then, she had not been drinking or taking drugs.she lied when she said she could not remember sleeping with the two men and waking up in her own piss. Of course this is all her fault and the two men were just two innocents( well one was found not guilty). Silly cow obviously she was gagging for it, got what she derserved. It's no wonder women do not come forward and report rape. The sad part about your story is that your girlfriend laughed, alcohol is something that can suddenly hit you, did you see the footage from the room. No because we could not see what happened in the room.
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drew
Drew
I agree to a certain extent but I don't see why he shouldn't train with a football club so long as he doesn't get paid and certainly doesn't play until the CCRC have reviewed the case and, if it goes that far, it is heard by an appeal court. Having said that, the football club have to weigh that up with the implications it has on them and Sheffield certainly may regret what they have done and the fallout they have encountered.
With regard to stats, the CCRC have reviewed about 18,500 cases since 1998 of which 565 got sent to the appeal court and of those, 374 had convictions quashed. It is a very small percentage and I agree that means the courts have a pretty good success rate but that would be no consolation if you are one of the 374 who spent time incarcerated when you shouldn't have been.
It's difficult to tell the exact state of the girl from the video. But this isn't about what happened in the entrance of the hotel, it's about what happened later. If I downed a few pints and shots or whatever then got a cab home I'm sure I'd be fine. I might be so good a bit later when the booze is doing its thing.
Besides, Evans wasn't convicted on the CCTV and the CCTV alone.
drew
Drew
As you have trouble remembering what you have posted or maybe you don't understand what you have posted but for ease of reference I highlight below where you accuse me of being convinced of his innocence. Remember now!
There are actually probably two verdicts but based on three scenarios. Guilty beyond reasonable doubt, not guilty because of doubt and not guilty because of innocence. Maybe it would be better if we had the option they use in Scotland which is a 'Not Proven' verdict.
drew
Drew
It's not the greatest video it has to be said and you are right, he wasn't convicted on the basis of that. I agree with your comments about having a drink getting in a cab and once you are home the effects kick in. However, she reportedly spent an hour at the kebab shop which surely would be plenty of time for the drinks to take affect. Maybe they did and that is why she stumbled when she was there. But, despite the poor video, there isn't really a suggestion of her stumbling around in the hotel foyer. Having said that, some will no doubt disagree.
JCL - the new kid in town
New member
- Aug 23, 2011
- 1,864
You say the text didn't invite him to the hotel so why did he go and you still think the conviction is unsafe?
JCL - the new kid in town
New member
- Aug 23, 2011
- 1,864
She was drunk enough to forget/lose her handbag and leave the pizza on the floor surely that tells you something. I have seen some extremely drunk people walk more or less fine. Also the accuracy if the CCTV video has been discussed earlier in this thread.
Post 864, I explain why I don't think that video is conclusive proof of her ability to consent or remember events of that evening. She is in the middle of the road, then in the next frame she has disappear. It takes a picture every second and missed her taking what would have been at least 2 steps to get out of camera view. The distance we see her walk in any one shot (there are two angles) is so short it wouldn't be impossible for a rather drunk person to appear to walk in straight line in a video that takes one shot every second. Regardless of that, I've just looked at it again, and after picking up the pizza if you look at her walk and use the paving slab as a point of reference, she isn't walking in a straight line.
drew
Drew
I don't know why he chose to go to the hotel but apart from some posts on here, I don't see that there has ever been a suggestion that the text was an invite by McDonald for Evans to go to the Hotel. If you believe it was an invite then doesn't that imply McDonald is guilty too?
JCL - the new kid in town
New member
- Aug 23, 2011
- 1,864
I don't know what the text said but I'm sure if it was relevant the jury would have heard it. I was just confused by your viewpoint. if the text wasn't an invite then surely him turning up is very dodgy or is your worry that they may have got to the right decision but for the wrong reasons?
drew
Drew
Have you read the transcript of the decision of the judges not to allow the appeal as that makes reference to the text as does the website Chedevans. The wording is slightly different but they both add 'or words to that effect'. Nowhere does it imply it was an invite for Evans to join McDonald.
JCL - the new kid in town
New member
- Aug 23, 2011
- 1,864
I've not read it but ok I'll go with it not being an invite. How does this fit in with your viewpoint? Turning up uninvited is extremely odd, isn't it and making the porter give him a key makes him look guilty does it not?
No still do not see where I have misrepresented you, you feel that the conviction is unsafe, therefore if you were on a jury, you would find him not guilty. I agree that your first post on this thread was to stay well clear. Well you didn't manage that. You then have spent much of it questioning her evidence and making references all the time to the conviction been unsafe. Oh yes you have made it clear that you have not uttered the words, he is innocent. I am happy to say I think he is guilty. You either think he is guilty or he is not. There is no grey area with rape. They had sex, was it consensual? If it was then he is not guilty, if it wasn't then he is guilty. And if the jury feel that they are unsure then again it either goes to a retrial or not guilty. It has to be beyond reasonable doubt. You are just Nick picking with the attitude " I have not said he is innocent". I think most people if they thought he was guilty would not defend him. 12 people sat through all the evidence and came to a conclusion he was guilty, it could not be appealed because the evidence was sound and he could not bring anything new to the table to show the conviction was unsafe. It's now gone to a independent case review. Which you again seem deluded into thinking it all part of the process and that she still remains an alleged victim. In law you are innocent until proved guilty. He has been found guilty, therefore he remains guilty until such time he can prove his innocent and the girl remains the victim and not alleged.
drew
Drew
I agree that those actions are a bit odd but those two things alone don't make you guilty of rape.