Syria vote Labour demands evidence

[martyn20]

"“From numerous interviews with doctors, Ghouta residents, rebel fighters and their families….many believe that certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out the (deadly) gas attack,” he writes in the article.

The rebels noted it was a result of an accident caused by rebels mishandling chemical weapons provided to them.

“My son came to me two weeks ago asking what I thought the weapons were that he had been asked to carry,” said Abu Abdel-Moneim, the father of a rebel fighting to unseat Assad, who lives in Ghouta.

As Gavlak reports, Abdel-Moneim said his son and 12 other rebels died in a weapons storage tunnel. The father stated the weapons were provided to rebel forces by a Saudi militant, known as Abu Ayesha, describing them as having a “tube-like structure” while others were like a “huge gas bottle.”

“They didn’t tell us what these arms were or how to use them,” complained a female fighter named ‘K’. “We didn’t know they were chemical weapons. We never imagined they were chemical weapons.”

“When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them,” she warned. She, like other Syrians, do not want to use their full names for fear of retribution.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_...ing-the-weapons-were-provided-by-Saudis-1203/

Is that supposed to be related to the attacks on 21st?

 

[martyn20]

24 hours ago you seemed hell bent on the UK attacking the Syria Government. You seemed sure that THEY were the ones using the Chemicals. Maybe just waiting for concrete evidence would be advisable.

What are you talking about, these new documents blame the regime, that's what I was saying 24 hours ago and still what I am saying now?? Please explain

 

[daveinprague]

I have to say that i have read through the posts since last night.
I am amazed that i agree with your posts DIP, i don't normally. This is the pick (imo) of your posts so far.

I think disagreements with people on here are due to having to type, rather than talk...what we have disagreed about in the past, may well never reached a point of disagreement if we were in a boozer talking about it...its just the way of forums...

 

[martyn20]

Its a sad state of affairs...thanks for the pdf btw, id just got in when I saw about this... Im still not convinced, the passage referring to chemical use during this disaster of the last couple of years, the words 'we assess the oppostion have not used chemical weapons' makes whatever else is written a bit suspect.
Maybe Assads troops did, maybe they didnt, maybe they did in the past, maybe they didnt....same goes for the 'rebels'...(who have bragged about it) ...but we still go ahead and continue to arm the 'rebels'. Im just very glad were not involved.

But how could the rebels have stayed in the government areas for several hours firing these rockets. The satellite images have been shown to members of congress from both sides.

 

[Jesus Gul]

"“From numerous interviews with doctors, Ghouta residents, rebel fighters and their families….many believe that certain rebels received chemical weapons via the Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, and were responsible for carrying out the (deadly) gas attack,” he writes in the article.

The rebels noted it was a result of an accident caused by rebels mishandling chemical weapons provided to them.

“My son came to me two weeks ago asking what I thought the weapons were that he had been asked to carry,” said Abu Abdel-Moneim, the father of a rebel fighting to unseat Assad, who lives in Ghouta.

As Gavlak reports, Abdel-Moneim said his son and 12 other rebels died in a weapons storage tunnel. The father stated the weapons were provided to rebel forces by a Saudi militant, known as Abu Ayesha, describing them as having a “tube-like structure” while others were like a “huge gas bottle.”

“They didn’t tell us what these arms were or how to use them,” complained a female fighter named ‘K’. “We didn’t know they were chemical weapons. We never imagined they were chemical weapons.”

“When Saudi Prince Bandar gives such weapons to people, he must give them to those who know how to handle and use them,” she warned. She, like other Syrians, do not want to use their full names for fear of retribution.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2013_...ing-the-weapons-were-provided-by-Saudis-1203/

voice of ballshit

 

[Soulman]

voice of ballshit

Or Bullshit.

 

[daveinprague]

Ok, lets say there is proof... Despite not knowing where the front lines in these areas are..normally pretty fluid during urban fighting, but lets say the Syrian army did commit this atrocity..is it worse than the rebels or Assads forces doing it in past? Ive seen videos of rows of bodies including children after some of the 'rebels' have passed through areas...beheaded children...
I dont see a difference between Assad using chemical weapons, and the 'rebels' using car bombs indiscriminantly in Syria, and Lebanon. Is being shredded by a car bomb any more horrific than being gassed? Of course its the same.
I think we should stop arming the 'rebels' which is helping to keep the war going...as far as im aware from the media, before this event, the Syrians were regaining control of areas and winning...Rather than sending the 'rebels' weapons, spend the money on more humanitarian aid in bulk to neighbouring countries.
What baffles me, is that. Im sure the US, and British governments also have seen these videos of some of these rebel atrocities, yet we continue to arm them

 

[knocky1]

The Saudi intelligence chief, Prince Bandar bin Sultan (whose son I taught 18 years back) personally supplying chemical weapons is farcical. It would be like William Hague turning up with a load of armaments for the rebels.

 

[daveinprague]

If William Hague was an Intelligence chief for a country supplying the Sunni jihadists with arms in Syria?...Its kind of weird, considering they fight them in Saudi Arabia.
I think you misread it tbh...it was allegedly supplied to them by some Saudi militant, not personally by Prince Sultan.

 

[martyn20]

The nature of a chemical attack does make it slightly different, it's indiscriminate, depending on the wind you can kill 100 or 1000, I do not see it as very much different from the napalm bomb dropped on the school yesterday, but that's just my opinion.
We call them WMD and while that is now a dirty phrase they are weapons of mass destruction, this gas attack probably killed over 2000 people in one attack, a bombing raid or large scale missile attack cannot kill that many at once. These weapons are different, a human being we have decided they are unacceptable, that was decided almost 100 years ago and this is a test case for me, as human being we cannot allow other humans to kill each other like this.
If we could ask nicely or even use sanctions that would be great but neither Assad or the rebels are interested in words or trade embargos, we are running out of options. One option left is a limited missile attack on Assad's command and control, of course that's not an option open to the UK now thanks to Mr Miliband. Bit too late for him to say ok I am convinced lets vote again, the damage is done.
We have to stop these attacks happening again or another 426 will be gassed next week and using the stuff will become acceptable across the world.

 

[daveinprague]

Attacking his command and control, places the USA on the same side as Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, and the Islamic State of Iraq rebel groups...carry on beheading civilians guys... its a shit**** for sure. Its not our shit****..If anybody, the French should be more involved. Send humanitarian aid to the region, and not weapons.

 

[somerset]

The satellite images have been shown to members of congress from both sides.

Shame Milliband couldn't have had a look at them then.

 

[martyn20]

Attacking his command and control, places the USA on the same side as Al Qaeda, Al Nusra, and the Islamic State of Iraq rebel groups...carry on beheading civilians guys... its a shit**** for sure. Its not our shit****.. send humanitarian aid to the region, and not weapons.

Attacking his command and control is about stopping his ability to repeat this gas attack, plain and simple. Could be a single raid at first with minimum ordinance. It does not mean we are aligning ourselves with any of the groups you mentioned.

 

[martyn20]

Shame Milliband couldn't have had a look at them then.

He knew like the rest of us they would be coming but his party games led to that loss last night and a reduction in our options to zero. Cameron and coalition did not want to recall parliament and have a vote, they did not need it, labour did that.

 

[daveinprague]

Well, it kind of does, if you are influencing the battle field for one of the sides? One of the sides you are actually arming, I mean, If we are arming the 'rebels', and degrading the Syrian armies ability to command and control its forces, surely thats aligning yourself with the 'rebels' ?

Anyway, im off out... night..

 

[GreersElbow]

Seeing as no one responded to my claims that Hezbollah may well be the culprits, I'll leave these here:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/rebels-say-assad-transferred-chemical-weapons-to-hezbollah/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4394620,00.html
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...attle-rebels-near-Syria-capital-says-NGO.html
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...ezbollah-qhas-used-chemical-weaponsq-in-syria
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_23714611/syrian-rebels-want-hezbollah-leaders-tried-u-n
http://digitaljournal.com/article/352698
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/fr/...013/04/chemical-weapons-israel-hezbollah.html


And many more, the truth is; claims of chemical weapons being used have been dating back months. Not by Assad or the rebels but by Hezbollah. Make of it what you will.
I'm not convinced Assad or the rebels committed this atrocity.

 

[pork pie]

Attacking his command and control is about stopping his ability to repeat this gas attack, plain and simple. Could be a single raid at first with minimum ordinance. It does not mean we are aligning ourselves with any of the groups you mentioned.

You really have a simple mind don't you?

If NATO knock out the nation's command and control infrastructure, it will pave the way for the terrorists to take over. We need to keep well away from supporting the terrorists. It is NOT our problem how many get killed. The West may think they are doing it for the right reasons (although probably not the ones we get told!), but it will simply turn even more Arabs into anti-west fighters in the long run.

In an ideal world, we should simply go in, capture the culprits, and charge them for war crimes. We do not live inan ideal world. Anything the wast does, will only end up killing more civilians.

Look at the mess we have left in Iraq!

 

[martyn20]

Seeing as no one responded to my claims that Hezbollah may well be the culprits, I'll leave these here:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/rebels-say-assad-transferred-chemical-weapons-to-hezbollah/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4394620,00.html
http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...attle-rebels-near-Syria-capital-says-NGO.html
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/ne...ezbollah-qhas-used-chemical-weaponsq-in-syria
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_23714611/syrian-rebels-want-hezbollah-leaders-tried-u-n
http://digitaljournal.com/article/352698
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/fr/...013/04/chemical-weapons-israel-hezbollah.html


And many more, the truth is; claims of chemical weapons being used have been dating back months. Not by Assad or the rebels but by Hezbollah. Make of it what you will.
I'm not convinced Assad or the rebels committed this atrocity.

But how did Hezbollah get into the government held areas on 21st and stay there for so long and then get the government artillery to bombard the same area for several days to cover up the act?

 

[Southover Street Seagull]

Failing that let Israel go in, that might calm the whole situation down.

Is that bit tongue in cheek?

If Israel go in you could see a rather big Middle East war erupt.

 

[GreersElbow]

But how did Hezbollah get into the government held areas on 21st and stay there for so long and then get the government artillery to bombard the same area for several days to cover up the act?

You're joking? re-read what you're saying.

Hezbollah is fighting on Assad's side. Lebanon is within firing range of Syria. Who says they were fired within Syria?

What an appalling response.