[Politics] The 2024 US Election - Trump v Harris

[Zeberdi]

It doesn't seem to matter what the facts are about anything.

Yep - Maybe not for those in politics and facts may not matter to some people posting on this thread and certainly not on social media where as long as words are eloquent then the accuracy of content is irrelevant- But half my family are living in the States either with an American nationality or as ex-pats - and are frankly terrified about the prospect of a Trump presidency so to them the facts matter. For myself, as a British person with one eye on global geo-politics and Climate Change, facts DO matter very much - to those who honestly believe they don’t, I say Pah! Don’t be lazy, stop repeating each other, fake news, tropes and generalised nonsense - at least make the effort to fact check and be informed - do you own research

We may think we have a dog in the fight but our dog is standing on the clifftop at Lands End looking wistfully and with futility, westwards.

I think we should look a bit closer to home rather than out to sea for the potential impact a Trump presidency could have on UK politics. People don’t always seem to take on board the context here that we are living in an interconnected world of wars, trade, economies and environmental degradation - Our domestic policies are inextricably linked with international governments and global concerns. If Trump starts a trade war with China, it affects us. If Trump rolls back on NATO contributions or arms to Ukraine, it affects us. If Trump declares war on Iran, it affects us. If Trump enables foreign dictators to influence elections, it affects us. If MAGA means also support for far right parties and far right individuals in the UK, or the Conservatives support Trump, it affects us.

Conservatives rule out pre-election pact with Nigel Farage | Reform UK | The Guardian

Some Tory MPs had reportedly called for Farage to be made ambassador to US in exchange for him not standing for Reform UK

amp.theguardian.com

This thread is not just about what happens in another Country’s election but what the world could look like for all of us if Trump returns to power.

 

[knocky1]

 

[Zeberdi]

View attachment 179669

I posted this on the previous page with the link
to the story.

It was taken during a protest against a comedienne macabre act of holding up a photo of Trump’s ‘severed’ head splattered with ‘blood’. Trump then posted the video on Truth Social.

Very unpleasant and has been seen as more of Trump’s dog whistling to violent extremists.

America is not in a good place right now

 

[Greg Bobkin]

Are you Donald Trump?

No, not enough CAPITALS!

 

[peterward]

 

[Zeberdi]

‘ know about Courts more than anybody else’

Let see how far that gets him in his attempts to claim immunity

 

[Stat Brother]

A thought occurred to me while driving up today:-

Isn't a centre right 'socialist' government absolute perfection?

That is the governance we crave and occasionally have until they also become corrupted by power.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yep - Maybe not for those in politics and facts may not matter to some people posting on this thread and certainly not on social media where as long as words are eloquent then the accuracy of content is irrelevant- But half my family are living in the States either with an American nationality or as ex-pats - and are frankly terrified about the prospect of a Trump presidency so to them the facts matter. For myself, as a British person with one eye on global geo-politics and Climate Change, facts DO matter very much - to those who honestly believe they don’t, I say Pah! Don’t be lazy, stop repeating each other, fake news, tropes and generalised nonsense - at least make the effort to fact check and be informed - do you own research

I think we should look a bit closer to home rather than out to sea for the potential impact a Trump presidency could have on UK politics. People don’t always seem to take on board the context here that we are living in an interconnected world of wars, trade, economies and environmental degradation - Our domestic policies are inextricably linked with international governments and global concerns. If Trump starts a trade war with China, it affects us. If Trump rolls back on NATO contributions or arms to Ukraine, it affects us. If Trump declares war on Iran, it affects us. If Trump enables foreign dictators to influence elections, it affects us. If MAGA means also support for far right parties and far right individuals in the UK, or the Conservatives support Trump, it affects us.

Conservatives rule out pre-election pact with Nigel Farage | Reform UK | The Guardian

Some Tory MPs had reportedly called for Farage to be made ambassador to US in exchange for him not standing for Reform UK

amp.theguardian.com

This thread is not just about what happens in another Country’s election but what the world could look like for all of us if Trump returns to power.

I meant that we don't have a vote in the US presidential election and can do nothing more than look on from afar. And American voters do not take into account the opinion of foreigners about their candidates.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

A thought occurred to me while driving up today:-

Isn't a centre right 'socialist' government absolute perfection?

That is the governance we crave and occasionally have until they also become corrupted by power.

Yes and yes.

 

[lasvegan]

I didn't know that. Impress

I didn't know that. Impressive.

I am wondering whether our correspondent, @lasvegan thinks Trump could match that.

For those who are primarily obsessed with illegal immigrants, what are the 'illegal immigration' stats, @Stat Brother ? I read it in an unverified opinion piece (you can guess the rest) that Biden has let this 'soar' compared with the Great Wall era of Dump. What are the facts?

FACT CHECK: Setting the Record Straight on Bidenomics | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

Believe what you want to I guess, consider the source.

But I can guarantee you that there is not one US poster on here who will say (honestly) that they are better off now than they were 3 years ago.

 

[lasvegan]

I'm not sure that Hunter's laptop matches Trumps long list of frankly insane cockwomblery in terms of corruption-equivalence.

Yes, yes it does.

 

[lasvegan]

I would argue that if your reason for not voting Biden is his mental acuity, you can’t seriously consider voting for Trump. Who’s running him?


This shows a high degree of political naivety. The Democrats are a centre-right party who are roughly equivalent to what the Conservative Party used to be here in Britain, although the current Conservative Party has moved to the right of them. Nowhere have the Democrats tried to end private ownership or curb the progress of business. They have correctly identified that trickle down economics is bullshit, and are suggesting that organisations pay their workers enough to live, but that’s still a capitalist move, as skint people can’t spend.

Republicans talk the talk of small government, but have never delivered on their talk, regardless of who’s leading them.

The simple fact of the matter is that all legislation must be enforced, which then requires an increase in the number of Civil Servants required. So for each civil or technological advancement that can potentially be misused, laws and regulations must come into place to deal with them. A functioning government can only grow as its society does.

Sensible individuals accept this as the cost of doing business and chip in their tax dollars, there’s always a few (in America a lot) who consider all tax theft.

They say this as kings of their domains, but they’d be the first to cry when a bigger boy came along and took what they considered theirs, if there wasn’t enforceable legislation there to protect them.

I can promise you that America has never even flirted with a socialist idea.

I don’t believe anyone is running Trump, other than Trump.

If you honestly believe that the democrats are a center-right party then it’s you who is the naive one.

I agree with you that republicans are all talk.

You are obviously a socialist.

I can promise you that the USA, democrats, are flirting with socialism.

 

[lasvegan]

Nutshell. Laughable that Americans consider Democrats as Socialist. wtf. Has there ever been a nation more paranoid about any governance?

Do you live here? No, you’re still in Brighton.

 

[AZ Gull]

But I can guarantee you that there is not one US poster on here who will say (honestly) that they are better off now than they were 3 years ago.

I am

 

[BadFish]

I am

Well that didn't take long

 

[BadFish]

I don’t believe anyone is running Trump, other than Trump.

If you honestly believe that the democrats are a center-right party then it’s you who is the naive one.

I agree with you that republicans are all talk.

You are obviously a socialist.

I can promise you that the USA, democrats, are flirting with socialism.

What are the socialist policies that the Democrats are proposing?

When are they going to start removing companies (the means of production) out of private hands?

 

[Zeberdi]

Nutshell. Laughable that Americans consider Democrats as Socialist. wtf. Has there ever been a nation more paranoid about any governance?

Have you considered that your definition of ‘socialism’ might differ from American’s? And might also depend on whether you are speaking to a Democrat or Republican?

I can promise you that the USA, democrats, are flirting with socialism.

Yes, I agree, when you look at Bernie Saunders and AOC but they still a represent a minority faction to the far left of the Party - However before battling with the Brits over whether or not the Democrats are ‘flirting with socialism’, it is always best for people to define their terms first - you may not be talking about the same thing after all..

The ‘socialism’ you refer to, is probably not the classic ‘socialism’ we would define in the UK - ie that as being embodied in the old Labour Party Constitution of the Clause 4 definition of socialism below - which most political commentators here would use as a starting template. In fact only a minority of Americans would see State/Government ownership to the means of production and control of services as a defining criteria at all:

Clause 4

To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service.

The point being, in any discussion about ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ about ‘Socialism’ or any other ‘ism, we need first of all to agree on our usage of the terms.

The Meaning of "Socialism" to Americans Today

Asked to define socialism, 24% of Americans mention "equality," while 17% say it is government ownership of the means of production.

news.gallup.com

 

[BadFish]

Have you considered that your definition of ‘socialism’ might differ from American’s? And might also depend on whether you are speaking to a Democrat or Republican?


Yes, I agree, when you look at Bernie Saunders and AOC but they still a represent a minority faction to the far left of the Party - However before battling with the Brits over whether or not the Democrats are ‘flirting with socialism’, it is always best for people to define their terms first - you may not be talking about the same thing after all..

The ‘socialism’ you refer to, is probably not the classic ‘socialism’ we would define in the UK - ie that as being embodied in the old Labour Party Constitution of the Clause 4 definition of socialism below - which most political commentators here would use as a starting template. In fact only a minority of Americans would see State/Government ownership to the means of production and control of services as a defining criteria at all:

Clause 4


The point being, in any discussion about ‘Left’ or ‘Right’ about ‘Socialism’ or any other ‘ism, we need first of all to agree on our usage of the terms.

View attachment 179747

The Meaning of "Socialism" to Americans Today

Asked to define socialism, 24% of Americans mention "equality," while 17% say it is government ownership of the means of production.

news.gallup.com

\Americans today are most likely to define socialism as :
- connoting equality for everyone,
- the provision of benefits and social services,
- people being social and getting along with one another.

I love the fact that these are what Amercians think socialism is yet they also see it as a terrible terrible thing.

After careful consideration i am totally against equality, provisions of benefits and services and people getting along with each other. Trump is much better!!.

How the f*** has such a great nation got here?

Of course this part might be the best answer to my question.

"About a quarter of Americans were not able to give an answer."

 

[peterward]

FACT CHECK: Setting the Record Straight on Bidenomics | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee

budget.house.gov

Believe what you want to I guess, consider the source.

But I can guarantee you that there is not one US poster on here who will say (honestly) that they are better off now than they were 3 years ago.

There isnt anybody in any western democracy who can claim it vs 3 years ago.

Oh I've heard Tango Mussolini claiming gas prices were at record lows because of him....Nice soundbite, but add it to the 30k+ official lies he's told as its utter bullshit.

Global oil prices were dropping from the mid teens (dropped over 35%) and the global market crashed entirely due to a Russia/Opec spat in 2020, so much so that you could literally pick up free oil from some refineries if you had capacity to ship and store it.

Guess what, it had f*** all to do with Trump though the market drops and crash reflected at the gas station. "Was so much cheaper and better under Trump". It wasn't because of Trump at all.

Covid happened in 2020 as all western economies went for quantitative easing, pumping in billions to prop up banks, business and economies, just a year after TRUMP LOST Putin launches the biggest war in Europe since WW2 sending oil prices surging and leading to GLOBAL Inflation, of which no country was immune, though US has faiired better than many.

So get behind the empty soundbites with global realities and your statements are just hot air.

If Biden was 2016-2020 and Trump 2020-2024 or any other combination of former presidents, the economic picture would've been same for neither Trump nor Biden had any control over oil market drop then crash, covid or Russian invasion of Ukraine which were the catalysts for Global economic forces that have by far been the largest movers of the economic picture in the US as the UK and euro zone.

Of course though, it was all Trump good and all Biden bad in MAGA land.

 

[Machiavelli]

Well that didn't take long

97 minutes, to be precise.
Beyond anecdote, it'd be helpful if someone posted some robust statistics on this matter.