[Football] "It's not VAR, it's the people running it"

[BadFish]

I think people have already said it but if other countries can make it work, why can't the Premier League?

it all seems to be unnecessarily complicated. Get rid of 'clear and obvious' this is too much grey area and subjectiveness. Having said that if you can't work out if something is right or wrong in less than a minute stick with the referees decision (this is what clear and obvious should mean).

All the rest is because the technology is being used by people incapable of quickly working out what they can see on a screen. Using other refs in stupid because they don't seem to want to overrule their mates. Train people up in both the technology and the rules of the game and if the ref has made a mistake tell them so. They still have the option of checking on the screen if they feel it is warranted or they can just take the VAR people's word for it.

To me, more important than this is that managers and fans are actually let into the decision-making process of both refs and VAR. Mic them up and let's hear why they have or haven't given something. Interview them after a game so they can explain their viewpoint on the big decisions of the game. These people are professionals and can sure justify why they make the decisions they make. You never know the rest of us (pundits especially) might actually learn something. If we don't learn something then at least we know the full facts before we disagree.

I listen to way too many podcasts and radio shows about football and way too much of them is spent talking about refs decisions (and now VAR also). I would prefer they were talking about actual football.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Well I think the OP has shot himself in the foot. VAR is here to stay. Its operation should be improved. Anyone advocating its removal has lost any argument before it has started. It absolutely will not be removed. Even Deep Purple's blind man, standing on a hill, very still, should be able to see that.

Anyway....better get a wriggle on or I'll miss the kick off - 90 mile drive....

Whatever the rights and wrongs of VAR it is a fact that there is a debate to be had. You don’t lose an argument before it has started unless you live somewhere like Russia. Football (just like life) is constantly evolving and it could evolve in a direction unexpected to you.

 

[Bodian]

There was one done a while back and there was no correlation. Big teams are not favoured.

The team who had most benefited was ...Brighton & Hove Albion.

No no no. We didn't 'benefit' more than anyone else. This was early days of VAR and many of the 'goals' overruled were so blatantly offside in the first place that pre-VAR they would have been instantly flagged. And some of the other ones we 'benefitted' from were also decisions that were effectively left to VAR rather than the on-field ref having made the decision. If they had made the decision, it would have been the same anyway. And some of the others were confirmations that the on-field decision stood. We didn't really 'benefit' from VAR at all - we were just involved in quite a number.

 

[Swansman]

You've reminded me that my weekly routine of booking a ref for the U13s, them pulling out on a Sunday morning and me reffing the game and getting pelters from the side lines is about to begin. Bell cheeses like Ted Lasso at Leeds are responsible for this admitting that his act of being annoyed at every decision is designed to influence the ref. This then gets repeated by wannabe Klopp coaches all over the football pyramid. The FA need to issue proper punishment. People like myself are very close to jacking it in. I've got better things to do in my spare time.

100% this. Any moaning about the referee should be harshly punished. It is also a poor excuse in 99% of the cases, and the refs doesn't make nearly as many mistakes as the teams does. In football, every team wants to score goals all the time, yet we usually see about 2.5 goals per game. A move that results in a goal usually takes about 10 seconds from winning the ball to the ball being in the net. If you spend 90 minutes trying to score and only 30 seconds of those are actually resulting in goals, it is obvious that teams fail (make mistakes) to do what they're trying to do almost all the time. Like GP says, "its a game of mistakes", if it wasn't - each game would have a hundred goals.

The refs are not the problem. The expectations from people is the real issue, and its not going to change unfortunately because we surround ourselves with these exact metrics - you can look in some app how many steps you took or calories you burnt or exactly how many minutes late the bus will be and so on - and then expect humans to be able to perform to that level of perfection.

Its sad really.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

So you do not know what I mean when I say byline? OK. You are right that the bit you quoted does not mention the direction of the ball. Well done. If you do not know that the ball must be passed forward for anyone to be offside I can't help you.

Apart from being rude you’re wrong. If a player is in front of the passer of the ball and the ball goes backwards and the player retreats to get the ball he is offside.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Won't happen.

And.....they simply need to get better officials, not the clowns currently running the show.

You may as well advocate that, since the referees keep whistling at the wrong moment, they ban the Acme Thunderer.

You can't just use science and tech if the people operating it are clueless. It makes things worse. You could write the best workflow system for insurance claims in the world but the insurer will be worse off if they give it to the tea lady and maintenance man with no training. And that's assuming it's bug free.

All that's happening now is more people disagreeing. It's the match official equivalent of when me and the boy have a long discussion about a handball call or yellow card having seen all the angles on the telly. We can't agree at times - but it seems having qualifications doesn't help

 

[Bodian]

So you do not know what I mean when I say byline? OK. You are right that the bit you quoted does not mention the direction of the ball. Well done. If you do not know that the ball must be passed forward for anyone to be offside I can't help you.

You can't be offside if you are behind the ball. Which is why you cannot be offside from a cross from the actual byline. But you can be offside from a ball passed backwards if you were in front of the ball and the second-last opponent at the time it was passed backwards. You can run back from an offside position and collect the ball, thereby committing an offside offence.

 

[Guinness Boy]

You can't be offside if you are behind the ball. Which is why you cannot be offside from a cross from the actual byline. But you can be offside from a ball passed backwards if you were in front of the ball and the second-last opponent at the time it was passed backwards. You can run back from an offside position and collect the ball, thereby committing an offside offence.

Exactly.

And try explaining that to a team of under 11s playing their first game using offside. Actually don't.

"You can't be offside from a throw in". "Huh?"
"You can't be offside from a goal kick". "Huh?"

From experience those two take about two years to sink in, but it's ok because the parent running the line won't understand the rules either.

 

[drew]

So you do not know what I mean when I say byline? OK. You are right that the bit you quoted does not mention the direction of the ball. Well done. If you do not know that the ball must be passed forward for anyone to be offside I can't help you.

I knew what you meant but it isn't the correct term. Also, if you can't read the laws of the game then I can't help you. Even the example you originally gave was meaningless.

I gave you a link but as they say, you can lead a horse to water etc etc.

 

[drew]

100% this. Any moaning about the referee should be harshly punished. It is also a poor excuse in 99% of the cases, and the refs doesn't make nearly as many mistakes as the teams does. In football, every team wants to score goals all the time, yet we usually see about 2.5 goals per game. A move that results in a goal usually takes about 10 seconds from winning the ball to the ball being in the net. If you spend 90 minutes trying to score and only 30 seconds of those are actually resulting in goals, it is obvious that teams fail (make mistakes) to do what they're trying to do almost all the time. Like GP says, "its a game of mistakes", if it wasn't - each game would have a hundred goals.

The refs are not the problem. The expectations from people is the real issue, and its not going to change unfortunately because we surround ourselves with these exact metrics - you can look in some app how many steps you took or calories you burnt or exactly how many minutes late the bus will be and so on - and then expect humans to be able to perform to that level of perfection.

Its sad really.

Afraid, at the moment, I disagree. At present the referees slink off into the sunset after some diabolical decisions. If they fronted up and explained why they made the decision they did then fair enough but at the moment they refuse to do post match interviews so, personally, I think they're fair game. If they changed that stance then yes, penalise managers/players who continue to berate them.

 

[The Wizard]

How can you ever get rid of the subjectiveness of a decision in a football game?

It’s literally impossible, there’s tackles this season like the one between Chelsea and Tottenham where I think Bentancur played the ball but arguably came through the man in the build up to one of the goals, nearly everyone I’ve spoke to about that tackle has been 50/50 as to whether it’s a foul or not, and that’s the problem, many decisions in football aren’t clear cut.

This is what many people who weren’t in favour of VAR said at its inception as to why it may not work, I’m not sure what the answer is, I do think a time limit on decisions but then you’d have a new angle appearing showing the decision to be wrong and there would be uproar saying if it takes a bit extra time to get a decision right then so be it? Problem at the moment is it’s killing the flow of the game even more than the ridiculous time wasting that goes on.

 

[drew]

That’s the point I’m trying to make to you. I don’t think there is any technology involved other than some bloke watching the tele. They could ring me for all the good it would do. Bearing all off that in mind and with me agreeing we need to improve refereeing my conclusion is get rid of VAR as it brings nothing to the table.

Fair enough, we are virtually on the same page however my view would be that we keep VAR and improve the quality of the officials and their decision making. That would also hopefully speed up the process as well.

 

[drew]

How can you ever get rid of the subjectiveness of a decision in a football game?

It’s literally impossible, there’s tackles this season like the one between Chelsea and Tottenham where I think Bentancur played the ball but arguably came through the man in the build up to one of the goals, nearly everyone I’ve spoke to about that tackle has been 50/50 as to whether it’s a foul or not, and that’s the problem, many decisions in football aren’t clear cut.

This is what many people who weren’t in favour of VAR said at its inception as to why it may not work, I’m not sure what the answer is, I do think a time limit on decisions but then you’d have a new angle appearing showing the decision to be wrong and there would be uproar saying if it takes a bit extra time to get a decision right then so be it? Problem at the moment is it’s killing the flow of the game even more than the ridiculous time wasting that goes on.

I agree there will always be some decisions that are 50/50 but the Welbeck penalty shouldn't be and neither should pulling someone down to the ground using their hair! The aim should be to bring consistency and eliminate as many controversial decisions as possible although most would accept it's not possible to eliminate all of them.

 

[Swansman]

Afraid, at the moment, I disagree. At present the referees slink off into the sunset after some diabolical decisions. If they fronted up and explained why they made the decision they did then fair enough but at the moment they refuse to do post match interviews so, personally, I think they're fair game. If they changed that stance then yes, penalise managers/players who continue to berate them.

Slink off into the sunset? They recieve hate and death threats against themselves and their families while making £70k a year (which is less than some people here).

Post-game interviews with refs would probably not be very interesting.
"So why did you make that decision?"
"I thought it was correct"

 

[GT49er]

It's called VAR (Video Assistant Referee) so it has to be a referee making the decisions at Stockley Park (though it should be emphasised with far greater force than currently that the final decision rests with the on-field referee regardless of what the VAR thinks). However, there should be another person at Stockley Park - a senior ex-player. His job would be to decide what decisions the VAR should look at - the VAR can not intervene unless the ex-pro sees something he thinks should be checked and tells the VAR he can look at it.
Ex-pro doesn't think the error (if it is an error) is clear and obvious, the VAR just has to sit on his hands.

 

[Icy Gull]

Slink off into the sunset? They recieve hate and death threats against themselves and their families while making £70k a year (which is less than some people here).

Post-game interviews with refs would probably not be very interesting.
"So why did you make that decision?"
"I thought it was correct"

Anyone who makes 70k a year on here is likely to be asked to explain their feck ups though

 

[blockhseagull]

Lots of likes for this post but nobody has asked to see the evidence for VAR working better abroad…they have just accepted the assertion.

Assuming you don’t watch much European football ?

Maybe cast your mind back to both the mens and womens euros …. Decisions made quicker and certainly less mistakes than use of it in this country.

It’s the people using it … technology can never be at fault when no decisions are automated apart from goal line technology.

 

[Seagull58]

Lots of likes for this post but nobody has asked to see the evidence for VAR working better abroad…they have just accepted the assertion.

I watch lots of Serie A and La Liga and I don't recall blatantly bad decisions like the West Ham and Newcastle ones yesterday. It seems to me that they make better VAR decisions.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Why don't we let the computer make the decision.....

 

[LamieRobertson]

Slink off into the sunset? They recieve hate and death threats against themselves and their families while making £70k a year (which is less than some people here).

Post-game interviews with refs would probably not be very interesting.
"So why did you make that decision?"
"I thought it was correct"

Just as a matter of interest how many games with VAR in place have you attended